"Custom" ground italic 2314 nib?

[RevAaron]

A friend emailed me to ask if this was a good deal:

 

Esterbrook Pen--Custom 2314 Left Oblique nib working

 

Not the greatest deal, but that isn't the bit that seemed odd. I was curious if this nib had been mangled or if it was a stock 2314-M nib, so I asked, concluding my email with:

 

  Aaron said:

Is this a standard 2314 or has it been modified? The 2314 is what Esterbrook called a "stub" and what we would today call a left oblique stub. That's how all the 2314 and 9314 nibs are- left

foot oblique stub/italic nibs.

 

Thanks for clarification!

 

...and the reply:

  eBay Seller said:

Sorry but you are wrong.This nib has been ground down to create the left oblique.I own over 1000 Esterbrook pens and over 2500 gold nibs and I know when a nib has been ground downl

 

Am I missing something? Either the guy is imagining things, or someone clipped/ground the tip off an already oblique nib to make another tipless oblique?

 

...or, do I see tipping on the close up of the nib?

 

Now *that* would be wild- a 2314 that someone sent into Mottishaw to have retipped. Heh. Not that it couldn't have been done in the past, it just seems kinda sorta absurd.

 

Whaddya think, all?

 

Aaron

[System of Adam]

  RevAaron said:

A friend emailed me to ask if this was a good deal:

 

Esterbrook Pen--Custom 2314 Left Oblique nib working

 

Not the greatest deal, but that isn't the bit that seemed odd. I was curious if this nib had been mangled or if it was a stock 2314-M nib, so I asked, concluding my email with:

 

  Aaron said:

Is this a standard 2314 or has it been modified? The 2314 is what Esterbrook called a "stub" and what we would today call a left oblique stub. That's how all the 2314 and 9314 nibs are- left

foot oblique stub/italic nibs.

 

Thanks for clarification!

 

...and the reply:

  eBay Seller said:

Sorry but you are wrong.This nib has been ground down to create the left oblique.I own over 1000 Esterbrook pens and over 2500 gold nibs and I know when a nib has been ground downl

 

Am I missing something? Either the guy is imagining things, or someone clipped/ground the tip off an already oblique nib to make another tipless oblique?

 

...or, do I see tipping on the close up of the nib?

 

Now *that* would be wild- a 2314 that someone sent into Mottishaw to have retipped. Heh. Not that it couldn't have been done in the past, it just seems kinda sorta absurd.

 

Whaddya think, all?

 

Aaron

 

First off, a 2314 is a stub but not a left oblique (shaped like a right foot) nor or a right oblique (shaped like a left foot) it's just a stub.

Secondly, there is no tipping material on a 2314 (don't know about a 9314)

 

There is more than enough material (since there is no tipping per se on a 2314 to begin with) to make a left oblique nib out of a 2314. I see no reason why you couldn't do it. Also, do keep in mind that while Mottishaw and Binder are not the only games in town as far as grinding goes. One can get a very, very cheap regrind from Pendemonium that is fantastic. I actually own a 2314M oblique right nib that was custom ground.

 

Unless I misunderstand the situation, I see no reason why this couldn't be legit...

 

Adam

 

[RevAaron]

  Quote

First off, a 2314 is a stub but not a left oblique (shaped like a right foot) nor or a right oblique (shaped like a left foot) it's just a stub.

 

In Esterbrook terms, yes, 2314 and 9314 are "stubs"In modern terms, they are left oblique stubs. A left oblique is a left foot oblique, an oblique with a sland like your left foot- that is, like a 2314 or 9314 nib. All of the Relief nibs are semi-obliques stubs, both the earlier CS-made Relief nibs and the 9314/2314/2284 etc nibs.

 

In modern terms, and the way it's used by most companies during the 30s-50s on a stub is straight cut- *not* a slanted cut like on the 2314.

 

  Quote

Secondly, there is no tipping material on a 2314 (don't know about a 9314)

 

Not normally, no. There is tipping on the 9314. I was referring to the pictures- it does look like tipping was added, but like I said I may be seeing it wrong. The 2314 nibs (4 of em) and other folded tip nibs have a pretty clean visual break at the end.

 

  Quote

There is more than enough material (since there is no tipping per se on a 2314 to begin with) to make a left oblique nib out of a 2314. I see no reason why you couldn't do it. Also, do keep in mind that while Mottishaw and Binder are not the only games in town as far as grinding goes. One can get a very, very cheap regrind from Pendemonium that is fantastic. I actually own a 2314M oblique right nib that was custom ground.

 

Yup! And there are a lot of options for making an untipped italic, even more than for the grinding of tipped nibs- it is a less fickle process than smoothing or stubbing a usual nib, at least for me. As an aside, I really like Pendemonium's work- turn around is great, and it's nuts they only charge $15. *very* worth it.

 

  Quote

Unless I misunderstand the situation, I see no reason why this couldn't be legit...

 

Because the 2314 is already a left oblique stub- seems goofy to clip the tips and grind more. Mind you, there are times you'd want to do it, like if the folded tips were gone. I have a 1551 like that which I made into an italic/untipped stub.

 

Same with the 9314 nibs- already a left footed oblique.

 

For reference, scroll down to the bit on oblique nibs on Richard's info page on Nibs.

 

When you buy a Aurora, MB, Pelikan, or Kaweco with an oblique nib it is a left or left-footed oblique, same as the Esterbrook Relief stubs like the 2314 and 9314. Aurora calls a right foot oblique a Reverse Oblique.

 

 

Aaron

Edited January 17, 2009 by RevAaron

[Brian Anderson]

  RevAaron said:

...and the reply:

  eBay Seller said:

Sorry but you are wrong.This nib has been ground down to create the left oblique.I own over 1000 Esterbrook pens and over 2500 gold nibs and I know when a nib has been ground downl

 

Am I missing something? Either the guy is imagining things, or someone clipped/ground the tip off an already oblique nib to make another tipless oblique?

 

...or, do I see tipping on the close up of the nib?

First off that's some customer service.

 

"Nope, sorry buddy, you're an idiot, obviously I am right, bow down before me, for I own lots of pens."

 

Ummm..., ok, but that's just it, a x314 is a left oblique, that's what the definition of Relief is (only a slightly less sharp of an oblique).

 

Ok, so there is no "real" tipping material per se on a 2314, but the nib in question does appear to have some. Actually, it almost looks like a 9xxx series nib, but it's hard to tell. The nib appears to have that crescent line just below the breather hole and the writing looks to be horizontal as opposed to vertical. Maybe he could provide a better picture of the *whole* nib?

 

Really, how crazy is it to disassemble a 2314, re-tip it, grind it down, then reassemble it, hoping you don't break a hole in the collar where they are pressed together (which can often happen) and still hope the damn thing doesn't leak like a faucet?

 

Wow-

Brian - probably grumpy because of this month long headache.

[RevAaron]

  Brian Anderson said:

Ok, so there is no "real" tipping material per se on a 2314, but the nib in question does appear to have some. Actually, it almost looks like a 9xxx series nib, but it's hard to tell. The nib appears to have that crescent line just below the breather hole and the writing looks to be horizontal as opposed to vertical. Maybe he could provide a better picture of the *whole* nib?

 

That's what I thought too. The tipping on the pictured nib looks like that on my 9314- as well as I can tell, the grind looks the same, the lines around the tip. I asked for a picture of the nib and a picture of the underside of the nib but never got any response. I figured seeing the underside might illuminate if it is untipped, folded tip, or re-tipped. Maybe if someone else asks he'd get the message.

 

  Brian Anderson said:

Really, how crazy is it to disassemble a 2314, re-tip it, grind it down, then reassemble it, hoping you don't break a hole in the collar where they are pressed together (which can often happen) and still hope the damn thing doesn't leak like a faucet?

 

Well, that's what I was thinking. How sense does it make to take an already oblique nib, retip it, and grind it into an oblique? I don't know if retipping was a lot less expensive and more accessible 20 years ago, or whenever this is supposed to have been done, but in modern terms its pretty nuts- my 9314-M cost me $25, and you could probably get one even cheaper if you looked hard enough. As opposed to the $70-100 you'd have to pay someone to retip a crapped out 2314!

 

Heck, Greg Minuskin can't even retip steel nibs. Not sure why, but that's the story.

 

  Brian Anderson said:

Brian - probably grumpy because of this month long headache.

 

Hang in there!

 

Aaron

Edited January 21, 2009 by RevAaron

[david i]

  RevAaron said:

A friend emailed me to ask if this was a good deal:

 

Esterbrook Pen--Custom 2314 Left Oblique nib working

 

Not the greatest deal, but that isn't the bit that seemed odd. I was curious if this nib had been mangled or if it was a stock 2314-M nib, so I asked, concluding my email with:

 

  Aaron said:

Is this a standard 2314 or has it been modified? The 2314 is what Esterbrook called a "stub" and what we would today call a left oblique stub. That's how all the 2314 and 9314 nibs are- left

foot oblique stub/italic nibs.

 

Thanks for clarification!

 

...and the reply:

  eBay Seller said:

Sorry but you are wrong.This nib has been ground down to create the left oblique.I own over 1000 Esterbrook pens and over 2500 gold nibs and I know when a nib has been ground downl

 

Am I missing something? Either the guy is imagining things, or someone clipped/ground the tip off an already oblique nib to make another tipless oblique?

 

...or, do I see tipping on the close up of the nib?

 

Now *that* would be wild- a 2314 that someone sent into Mottishaw to have retipped. Heh. Not that it couldn't have been done in the past, it just seems kinda sorta absurd.

 

Whaddya think, all?

 

Aaron

 

I have vague recollection of boxes of x214 nibs sitting around that, despite the name by Esterbrook, appear to be regular Obliques.

 

regards

 

david

[Brian Anderson]

  david i said:

I have vague recollection of boxes of x214 nibs sitting around that, despite the name by Esterbrook, appear to be regular Obliques.

I highly doubt it, unless you have a photo, Esterbrook 314 were always left obligue, from eyedroppers to dip pen nibs to CS made Relief to x314 renew-points. If they were a regular obligue they would have been numbered something else.

 

Brian

 

[david i]

  Brian Anderson said:

  david i said:

I have vague recollection of boxes of x214 nibs sitting around that, despite the name by Esterbrook, appear to be regular Obliques.

I highly doubt it, unless you have a photo, Esterbrook 314 were always left obligue, from eyedroppers to dip pen nibs to CS made Relief to x314 renew-points. If they were a regular obligue they would have been numbered something else.

 

Brian

 

 

What is there that one possibly can doubt?

 

Most today in the hobby eschew the confusion of "left" vs "right" when addressing Oblique, in favor of "regular' and "reverse".

 

Furthermore, the nibs are not called oblique by Esterbrook, thus, my syntax, "... despite the name by Esterbrook, appear to be regular Obliques", is correct. Esterbrook did not call them oblique, but they are oblique. Etc.

 

When home this week, I have no doubt that I can provide a photo that shows a regular oblique appearance to the nibs that are not described as oblique by Esterbrook.

 

Regards

David

Edited January 25, 2009 by david i

[david i]

Addendum,

 

Here is nib shot showing that the x214, despite NOT being called oblique by Esterbrook, indeed is a regular oblique nib (Right Hand or Left Foot in older jargon). Certainly not a currently defined stub.

 

regards

 

David

 

http://removed.xyz/penteech/estienibart850B.jpg

[RevAaron]

Now I think we are confusing each other- Esterbrook x314 "stubs" are all regual/left-footed stub nibs. I hear a tone of debate between Brian and David, but from what I can tell you're both saying the same thing.

 

In modern terms, I think it'd appropriate to call the x314 nibs "oblique stubs" rather than simply "obliques" because of the prevalence of round tip obliques in modern pens. Or, in the case of Esterbrook's nibs, just call them Relief nibs, which directly implies a regular or left-handed oblique stub.

 

The only non-Relief Esterbrook stubs are the x284 nibs, ja? Straight cut, like we'd expect in a modern "stub."

[Brian Anderson]

  david i said:

  Quote

I highly doubt it, unless you have a photo, Esterbrook 314 were always left obligue, from eyedroppers to dip pen nibs to CS made Relief to x314 renew-points. If they were a regular obligue they would have been numbered something else.

What is there that one possibly can doubt?

 

Most today in the hobby eschew the confusion of "left" vs "right" when addressing Oblique, in favor of "regular' and "reverse".

Really? Says who? Was there a formal meeting to arrive at this consensus? I must have missed that pen show.

 

  Quote

Furthermore, the nibs are not called oblique by Esterbrook, thus, my syntax, "... despite the name by Esterbrook, appear to be regular Obliques", is correct. Esterbrook did not call them oblique, but they are oblique. Etc.

You are correct, they are not called oblique, they are called Relief. Relief equates to the angle of obliqueness. Relief = Oblique, but Oblique != Relief. My original comment remains then, if they were "regular" oblique, they would have been numbered something different. Relief = 314 in Esterbrook syntax.

 

Best-

Brian