What does Noodler's mean by Cellulose paper,

[thibaulthalpern]

  nkk said:

Really? My BP black, once fully dry (read: I used cheap paper and had feathering to achieve this), did not go anywhere when dipped in hot water. Once fully dry, it should not smear at all.

 

-Nkk

 

For me it smears. Just lick your fingers in your own lovely saliva and then rub on the dried BP ink. It smears.

 

[Splicer]

On a hunch I tried applying a wash to lines drawn in Noodler's Borealis and in Old Manhattan. Both of them had some of the dried ink get reconstituted with the wash, resulting in the clear water turning gray.

 

I suspect that what you'll need for what you want to do is shellac-based india ink. Even with a cellulose-bonding water-based ink, you have to make sure that all of it gets bonded to the paper or else it'll still smear.

 

Unfortunately, you should never ever ever put india ink into a fountain pen. Noodler's is a good step toward addressing the handicap fountain pen users have always had to put up with. We can't run real ink through them. But a good step does not bring us all the way there. My only suggestions are to try the Ackerman Pump Pen with a dip pen of your liking or else a stylographic pen like a rapidograph or a Tintenkuli. Older piston-filler rapidographs can be found without too much difficulty.

[eilu]

the peanut butter jar of unspeakable horror thread might be helpful: https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/in...showtopic=29483

[Margana]

Or you could go reverse the sequence. Lay in a wash, let it dry, and then add the line work. Seen some lovely, loose effects done that way.

[Pen Nut]

  biffybeans said:

Cellulose paper should mean made from plant material, right? Wouldn't that mean most everything except maybe Yupo paper?

 

And how long should it take to dry - I mean dry so you can watercolor over it?

 

I'm testing a wood-free paper and 15 minutes later, I still can't brush over the Noodler's BB without leaving a gray trail...

 

Anyone???

 

Had all the same 'issues' as you have had and never really got the answers. The definition of 'bulletproof' isnt that relative to inks in my opinion.

Would much prefer a label that said ' when dry does not smear and permanent ' but then definitions start to kick in again.

 

X Feather..... now then it doesnt feather, i grant you that, but perhaps the label should have also said X Drying. Ah the quest for pen and ink twists and turns

 

[menick]

  biffybeans said:

From the Pendemonium site: "An ink designated by Noodler's as "bulletproof" means it stands up against bleach, UV Light, industrial chemicals, etc., making it impossible to forge a check! The cellulose reactive dyes are completely water soluble in your pens and in the bottle, but once the ink dries on the paper, it is totally waterproof and permanent!"

 

IMHO, waterproof an permanent means that I should be able to paint over it without it smearing....

 

 

 

  thibaulthalpern said:

  biffybeans said:

And how long should it take to dry - I mean dry so you can watercolor over it?

 

Bulletproof doesn't mean smear proof. I've had experience with Noodler's bulletproof black and it definitely can be smeared even hours after it dries of days. What it means is that not everything would wash off so you can still see your writing. Bulletproof isn't smear proof, in my experience. So, can you watercolour over it without smearing? I doubt it.

 

I don't know if someone else mentioned it yet,

 

The ink is quite saturated in the sense that there is much cellulose reactive dye in there. If you draw with a wet nib, then it may be that not all of the dye reacts (too much dye versus cellulose).

 

If after a few moments, your dry finger will not smear the ink, but the brush will, this is probably the case.

 

I'd then recommend diluting the ink and trying again. I my experience, does not change the coloration that much but will help.

 

My girlfriend has sometime sweaty fingers and hates smears. So when using noodlers or PR for her, I dilute it and it does the trick.

 

nick

 

PS, nice new pic!

[biffybeans]

Margana - that's typically what I do - ink over paint. I just wanted a better understanding of what was going on here, and I think I get it now.

 

 

  Margana said:

Or you could go reverse the sequence. Lay in a wash, let it dry, and then add the line work. Seen some lovely, loose effects done that way.

 

[psfred]

Ink over watercolor will work fine, but Noodler's cellulose reactive inks over any film forming paint (acrylic, etc) will be water soluble as the cellulose is protected from contact by the film.

 

I assume you are thinking watercolor pigments, which would work great, and preserve the sharpeness of the ink lines. Otherwise, use and India ink that become waterproof -- but cannot be used in fountain pens safely.

 

Peter

[limesally]

  psfred said:

Ink over watercolor will work fine, but Noodler's cellulose reactive inks over any film forming paint (acrylic, etc) will be water soluble as the cellulose is protected from contact by the film.

 

I just found that out yesterday, using ink over watersoluble crayon. If the layer isn't too thick, ink like Noodler's BB or Legal Lapis writes on it fine no problem and look great, but if there's a lot of waxy residue, nothing doing. I tried it with my usually trusty Namiki Falcon with BB, and even a Faber Castell Pitt Pen with india ink bunged up on it.

 

Steph, I do a lot of the same type of stuff you do - watercolor on top of ink, and I still haven't found a satisfactory way to guarantee that Noodler's BB won't smudge under a waterbrush. If I'm careful to keep the line fairly fine, and keep a light touch so that there's more opportunity for the ink to bond, and therefore less of a "free ink" layer lying on top, there will be less smudging. Also, a "drier" brush, with lots of pigment relative to water, will help. But there's usually a bit of free ink released, and forget about trying to put something over something with a lot of hatching.

 

 

 

[Wildoaklane]

I'm still new to all of this so this question may be naive....What would happen if the paper were treated with pounce prior to drawing or use of pounce/ink sand after drawing? Would use of blotting paper get rid of the ink which didn't attach to the cellulose?

[WhosYerBob]

  biffybeans said:

I'm not trying to be a smart aleck, but waterproof means waterproof and permanent means permanent. As in does not budge.

My experience of trying most "waterproof and/or bullet-proof" inks as a watercolor base drawing is the same as you're describing. Noodler's is known for being super-saturated - I can only guess that the excess ink pigment just can't bond with the paper.

[WhosYerBob]

  Wildoaklane said:

What would happen if the paper were treated with pounce prior to drawing or use of pounce/ink sand after drawing? Would use of blotting paper get rid of the ink which didn't attach to the cellulose?

Depends on both the paper and ink in question - pounce won't do *anything* if the ink is being laid down on Mylar, but it works great on most pulp-based papers. Blotting paper only works if the ink is still wet.

[scribbler77]

  thibaulthalpern said:

  biffybeans said:

And how long should it take to dry - I mean dry so you can watercolor over it?

 

Bulletproof doesn't mean smear proof. I've had experience with Noodler's bulletproof black and it definitely can be smeared even hours after it dries of days. What it means is that not everything would wash off so you can still see your writing. Bulletproof isn't smear proof, in my experience. So, can you watercolour over it without smearing? I doubt it.

 

Did you try blotting? Works for me!

[thibaulthalpern]

  scribbler77 said:

  thibaulthalpern said:

  biffybeans said:

And how long should it take to dry - I mean dry so you can watercolor over it?

 

Bulletproof doesn't mean smear proof. I've had experience with Noodler's bulletproof black and it definitely can be smeared even hours after it dries of days. What it means is that not everything would wash off so you can still see your writing. Bulletproof isn't smear proof, in my experience. So, can you watercolour over it without smearing? I doubt it.

 

Did you try blotting? Works for me!

 

I haven't tried blotting the writings and then attempting to smear it. In normal writing circumstances, Noodler's Bulletproof doesn't smear. However, if you're doing a wash over ink it's likely to smear. If it doesn't smear if one immediately blots afterwards I'm going to say to hell with the fountain pen and use something else to draw with ;-) There's no point in sticking so religiously to fountain pens. As Kurt ((bleep)) said many times, right tools for the right job.

 

P.S. I'd like to take this opportunity to state that fountain pens are not the "ultimate" of pens There are no "ultimate" of pens. Each writing instrument has its best and worse uses.

Edited December 24, 2008 by thibaulthalpern

[Titivillus]

  WhosYerBob said:

  Wildoaklane said:

What would happen if the paper were treated with pounce prior to drawing or use of pounce/ink sand after drawing? Would use of blotting paper get rid of the ink which didn't attach to the cellulose?

Depends on both the paper and ink in question - pounce won't do *anything* if the ink is being laid down on Mylar, but it works great on most pulp-based papers. Blotting paper only works if the ink is still wet.

 

Also the pounce isn't celluloid so you'd have a better chance of not getting the ink to bond to the paper.

 

K

 

[hrjunior]

  biffybeans said:

Cellulose paper should mean made from plant material, right? Wouldn't that mean most everything except maybe Yupo paper?

 

I guess you is right.

 

No-cellulose 'paper', maybe parchment (the skin of sheep or goats prepared for use as writing material).

 

Someone already wrote in parchment, fountain pens ink works?

[bluestocking]

I have noticed that you can erase the excess unbonded Noodler's black with a good plastic eraser (a la Staedtler Mars), but it does fade it a bit.

[Titivillus]

  biffybeans said:

Cellulose paper should mean made from plant material, right? Wouldn't that mean most everything except maybe Yupo paper?

 

And how long should it take to dry - I mean dry so you can watercolor over it?

 

I'm testing a wood-free paper and 15 minutes later, I still can't brush over the Noodler's BB without leaving a gray trail...

 

Anyone???

 

 

It might be Advertising speak to sell more ink. just a thought

 

 

Kurt

[excarnate]

  biffybeans said:

I'm testing a wood-free paper and 15 minutes later, I still can't brush over the Noodler's BB without leaving a gray trail...

I recall reading about inks such as Noodler's Red-Black washing out to just black (or perhaps gray), making it clear it is a compound ink. Part red (normal ink) and part black (apparently standard bulletproof black).

 

This is an interesting discussion, start at the link and go to at least post #25:

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/in...ost&p=70167

 

Apparently Aircorp Blue-black is 'bulletproof', although Pendemonium's information is often way out of date. Apparently bulletproof means a forger wouldn't care for it, not that no component washes out.

 

The best picture I found didn't show all sides of the bottle so I can't comment on what it is currently advertised as.

Edited December 27, 2008 by excarnate