Correct practice?

[Vardigon]

I'd like to see what caliken or another accomplished calligrapher has to say about this >_>.

[HDoug]

  Vardigon said:

I'd like to see what caliken or another accomplished calligrapher has to say about this >_>.

 

Here's a post where caliken comments on this very subject. It's a bit of a self-serving link because he's agreeing with me .

 

Doug

[thibaulthalpern]

  HDoug said:

  Vardigon said:

I'd like to see what caliken or another accomplished calligrapher has to say about this >_>.

 

Here's a post where caliken comments on this very subject. It's a bit of a self-serving link because he's agreeing with me .

 

Doug

 

Thanks, Doug. What you and caliken say is what I had thought so too. Indeed, only the hands and fingers are capable of very fine motor movements and thus when small writing is involved, more of the hand is involved. My handwriting is small, but I wouldn't say I'm a finger writer. My wrist and arms tend to move and not the fingers.

 

Put it this way, when we thread a needle, we don't use shoulder movement but rather fingers. Try threading a needle with your shoulders ;-) *chortle*

[RayMan]

Below is a link to a youtube calligraphy demo. I believe the demo was created by caliken. Looks to me like he's using his shoulder for larger strokes, and fingers for finer strokes.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vbya7LO9nME...feature=related

 

[fastercat]

  eilu said:

  fastercat said:

Did you read the article link? Maybe you can make more sense out of it and help us understand what they are trying to tell us?

 

Okay, here goes;

 

 

eilu,

Thanks for the analysis. It kind of supported of why I thought I was missing something about the advice. Around the same time I found that original article I read about Spencerian handwriting and how they move their hand over every three characters to make sure the 'arc' of the hand movement didn't change the look of the handwriting. It all makes more sense now.

 

 

[eilu]

Glad I could help/

[KenS]

  scratchy said:

I read something somewhere sometime about movement for handwriting supposed to come from the shoulder, or at least I think I did (my memory is a bit rubbish).

 

Is it correct for the best handwriting to come from the shoulder or is it the wrist? Up till now I have had a tendency to 'draw' the letters with my fingers but try as I might, I can't get my handwriting to look good so I want to try something different. I have had a look at the links but didn't find what I originally read about this.

 

Today I managed to write a few words 'from the shoulder' and it seemed to be better, but i have very little control.

 

I remember well from grade school (early 60's) being cajoled, and scolded (by the teacher) for moving my fingers, and to some my wrist. I may well be wrong, but I seem to remember the teacher using the "Rice Method" of handwriting. I didn't develop a good hand at that time, but many of those students who did had beautiful handwriting.

Best regards, Ken.

[mtrudeau]

I downloaded a 1935 Palmer Method textbook from the Internet yesterday and printed it out. I found out I should not be resting my wrist on the table as I write, just the ends of the fourth and fifth finger should rest on the paper. This one tip seemed to help me out a lot. But maybe everyone else but me already knew that . . . Palmer also says the movement of your arm should come from within your sleeve, if that makes any sense.

 

Palmer was talking about plain writing though, not calligraphy. I think in calligraphy the bigger your letters the more you have to move your shoulder.

Edited December 14, 2008 by mtrudeau

[Coyotebd]

I call shenanigans on shoulder writing. I've been trying it for a while and it's possible, but only in specific circumstances of perfect posture and ideal conditions. Writing in my 400 page Everyman journal presents a problem since I am near the beginning and my arm cannot wrest on the table while I write.

 

To say that the shoulder girdle tires less - probably. However, i don't think that my elbow and shoulder is designed to move as constantly as my fingers. Fingers are constantly active and moving. When we write, we aren't using more force than the hand is used to. Soreness comes from holding the pen, not moving it. Breaks are the answer.

 

I paint miniatures, finger motion all the way. If I take breaks, I'm fine, if I go two hours non-stop my hand cramps. My hand holding the miniature also cramps, so it's the size of what I'm holding that causes it. I switched to a larger device so I don't have to touch the miniature to hold it, and now I don't cramp in that hand.

 

I don't think the person that wrote the article is a doctor or scientist, just assumed that larger muscles mean less fatigue. That doesn't consider that what you are moving is also bigger and heavier.

 

I'm still going to work on my shoulder because for those times when I can write on a few sheets of paper, I think it is good. For small notepads and journals, or writing on my knee, I'm going to still use my fingers.

[Bartimaeus]

I guess if you try to write only with your fingers with a fountain pen, you'll get in trouble, because the angle between nib and paper changes all the time. I've watched myself today a bit, and yes, there is a bit of movment from the shoulder that helps with all those ups and downs you need for writing. But writing only from the shoulder doesn't get me anywhere.

I guess the article is a nice reminder not to try to use the fingers exclusively. But actually the muscles of the hand are as important as the muscles further up the arm.

 

My piano teacher told me to start with the big muscles in the shoulder and the arm, to make sure that I got those movements right and not to care about wrong notes as long as I got the hand to where I would have to play a certain chord for instance or start with a melody. Afterwords there would be lots of time to make the fingers work and make them find the precise keys. But of course I should not rely on the shoulder and arm alone.

Maybe it's somewhat similar with writing.

[TMac]

  mtrudeau said:

I downloaded a 1935 Palmer Method textbook from the Internet yesterday and printed it out. I found out I should not be resting my wrist on the table as I write, just the ends of the fourth and fifth finger should rest on the paper. This one tip seemed to help me out a lot. But maybe everyone else but me already knew that . . . Palmer also says the movement of your arm should come from within your sleeve, if that makes any sense.

 

Palmer was talking about plain writing though, not calligraphy. I think in calligraphy the bigger your letters the more you have to move your shoulder.

 

 

Aha! I've been trying to use more of my arm and shoulder but did not see any difference. Seeing your comment about not resting the wrist on the table may have solved my problem. I seem to anchor my wrist on the table while writing.

 

Many years ago when learning cursive, I was taught the Plamer method. I must have forgotten this point.

 

I'll lift my wrist and give the arm/shoulder another try.

 

Thanks

[msacco]

  scratchy said:

I read something somewhere sometime about movement for handwriting supposed to come from the shoulder, or at least I think I did (my memory is a bit rubbish).

 

Is it correct for the best handwriting to come from the shoulder or is it the wrist? Up till now I have had a tendency to 'draw' the letters with my fingers but try as I might, I can't get my handwriting to look good so I want to try something different. I have had a look at the links but didn't find what I originally read about this.

 

Today I managed to write a few words 'from the shoulder' and it seemed to be better, but i have very little control.

 

 

I use combined movement for my Spencerian writing. Here's a definition taken from the book the Elegant hand. It's really shoulder, arm, and some fingers but not a lot.

 

combined movement — A general term describing the combination of basic types of penmanship movement: whole-arm, muscular (i.e., forearm), and finger movement (see all). Specifically, there are at least four categories of combined movement (as explained by Benjamin Foster in 1830). The first uses whole-arm movement combined with finger movement to add precision to capital letters and flourishing. The second uses muscular (forearm) movement combined with finger movement, again to add precision, especially in the execution of capital letters and other extended letterforms. The third combines the whole-arm and forearm movements in succession, switching back and forth between the two: whole-arm for the capitals and flourishing, muscular for the small letters. The fourth uses all of the basic movements together (adding perhaps wrist movement), in complex combinations. See illus. 1.14.

 

 

 

[Paddler]

Think about the geometry of your hand and pen. If you are using a sharp italic nib, it is going to be very finicky about its angle with the paper (it has a very small sweet spot). If you write with your fingers, you will be changing the pen angle too much between the top of a letter and the bottom and the pen will skip. Also, writing with the fingers will change the side - to - side angle of the pen a lot from the beginning of the word to the end. The pen will try to dig into the paper at one end or the other. Writing from the shoulder, keeps the pen at a nearly constant angle and so the problems don't arise.

 

If you use a ball ended pen, or a stub, or a cursive italic, the sweet spot is relatively large. You can write in a way that is comfortable for you.

 

Paddler

 

[curioti]

 

I better get my broom!

 

I have been a finger writer for 35 years. over the past month or so I finally got serious about learning penmanship and my biggest breakthrough was in NOT using my fingers. Spenser's book recommends it, champion's does not. Palmer is a "musculat motion" anti-finger type. Personally, I cannot get consistent spacing when using my fingers. In fact, I can tell when I am because my letters get bad.

 

I suggest reading teh technique as described by the old penmasters in the IAMPETH website. These guys made thier living handwriting and had to design a technique for people wrot wrote 8-12 hours a day (like Bartelby the scrivener.) I can fill 5 shees of paper with the word "Anna" or "Miner" and not be the least bit fatiqued....unless I use my fingers.

 

Try it, you'll like it!

[Pensee]

  ralphawilson said:

This thread has inspired me to look into this more carefully (thanks, Scratchy). I've found I can write reasonably well while holding my hand and fingers pretty still and just moving my arm (and shoulder, but the arm is what seems to be moving). I find it helps a lot to have the writing surface be the right height, which is maybe a little lower than I usually use. This allows my arm to swing more freely. The arm is not moving dramatically, just sufficiently to write normal-sized letters. The result is not great, but it looks like my handwriting and it might have a tad more 'swing' to it. I think with some practice it would be possible to write at least as well this way, but it would take a commitment. Whether it would ultimately make a big difference is uncertain, but I'm going to keep experimenting with this 'armwriting' thing a bit more.

 

I guess I'm in same boat. Writing only with fingers feels 'hemmed in' or 'crunched up" if that makes any sense.

 

If use hand more as 'platform', I can feel biceps and triceps muscles working & that seems to offer more room for flowing letters or swirls.

 

Maybe it's an ergonomic thing kind of like 'Henrico' was talking about. I can definitely feel shoulder at work as move across the page.

 

Currently going through about 10 pages a day practicing this 'arm writing' approach. Can it be done?

 

I choose to be optimistic.

 

Look at concert violin/cello musicians. They're using big shoulder muscles, but fine motor control has been 'programmed' into the cerebellum so they don't even have to think about it.

 

Hopefully it will be true for handwriting!

 

--Bruce

[Gran]

The arm muscles come from the spine. How one attends to consciously using the spinal column, in any movement, determines much of the freedom of that movement. The relationship of the head and neck can either cramp, or free, what the fingers are doing.

 

One of the ways to notice if you are holding your neck or shoulders, or any part of the spine, in a stiff position, is to notice if you are inhaling or exhaling. If you are holding your breath while doing anything, it's likely you are stiffening your neck or something else. Lots of people tighten the tongue muscles when they write.

 

I can't imagine writing with just thinking of fingers, or wrist, or forearm, or shoulders. Even as school children, we were taught to place both feet on the floor so that we could feel the soles of our feet, to sit upright and enjoy that uprightness. The whole body is involved in writing. It's so lovely to let go of scrunching. It makes writing a kind of dancing.

Edited January 9, 2009 by Gran

[Flourish and Blotts]

I was told to write with the shoulder when I was young. I was told that it meant that I was supposed to de-emphasize the fingers and wrist and allow my whole arm to move. I remember that it took me a little while to adjust, but I have always found it to work for me, and my everyday handwriting often receives compliments. It allows me to be more consistent with the spacing and height of my letters. And its indispensible when flourishing. Its impossible to make the sweeping curves required to flourish if you are writing from your wrist.

 

Keep in mind that this doesn't mean that the fingers and wrist don't move at all. Certainly, they add the fine adjustments, but they will do so almost automatically. The key is that your whole arm should move when you write.

[J0rdan]

I've been practicing this method for about a month now. Yesterday I looked back on my handwriting from then and I'm astonished by the improvement.

 

Here's what I did:

Start off with one of those cheap ballpoints you've got laying around, or use a pencil. Write large on whatever inexpensive lined paper you've got for a few pages. I'm talking three or four lines tall. Writing in the air is a good alternative as well, and you can hold a nice fountain pen while doing that too.

 

Then get a cheap spiral wide-ruled notebook or composition book. Find something to copy - I'm memorizing bible verses this way - and write it out, two lines tall. Keep your fingers still and let your shoulder and forearm do the work. Even just a few cumulative hours of practice this way will noticeably improve your handwriting when you're only working with one line of height.

Edited February 8, 2009 by J0rdan

[WendyNC]

I learned to write as an "arm writer," holding the pen loosely and started using inexpensive fountain pens at the age of 9. I had lovely penmanship--until I went to college. Arm writing, for me, is slower than "finger writing." Then, in the working word, I was often writing on two-part small note pages where, again, arm writing didn't work well. As a result, my once-lovely penmanship has deteriorated significantly.

 

Now, I'm slowing beginning to lose the fine sensations in my thumb and first two fingers of my right (dominant) hand, so back to arm writing it shall be. The upside is that if I'm moving back to arm writing, I have an excuse to go back to fountain pens. I really must locate my 1974 Parker 75.

[bitterwonder]

You all have covered it better than I could; using the shoulder and arm keeps the fingers lighter and allows greater movement; especially for drawing.

It sounds counter intuitive, but you get this lightness and precision when you utilize the power in the arm and shoulder.

Hard to get drawing students to do it.

Oh yes, the brush question, same thing, controlled by arm and shoulder.

I teach drawing and painting and most students arm muscles are too tight. I let them feel my hand when I draw and they are suprised at how lightly I hold the drawing material. That is my biggest battle, to get them to use their arms.