Lawsuit filed by Montblanc

[thibaulthalpern]

Interesting. I consider the discourses going on over at Pentrace (I image that's what you're talking about) to be quite healthy with lots of interesting points of views being put forth. I don't consider it bashing.

 

And regarding what people will say if RC is found wrong: my view is that the law is not always right. It certainly isn't if you take for example California's Proposition 8 which prohibits marriage between people of the same sex. That's now in the law books but absolutely wrong. Hence, if RC is found in the eyes of the law to be wrong, it does not necessarily mean that RC was in other people's views 'wrong". You know what I mean? Other examples aside from California's Proposition 8, not too long ago the USA has miscegenation laws making it illegal for people of difference races to marry. Now, I would also call that wrong.

 

Cheerios!

Edited December 6, 2008 by thibaulthalpern

[Blade Runner]

I just had to stop in here and tell you all that I have the utmost respect and admiration for everyone I have seen post so far. No one flying off the handle, no one jumping to conclusions, no one bashing either MB or RC aimlessly. I just came from the discussion on another message board where it seems that jumping to conclusions and bashing is the treat of the day. It sure is nice to see some intelligent, thoughtful, and respectful conversation and discussion.

 

I tip my hat to all of you.

 

Allan

 

Yes, I too am quite proud of the FPN community.

[ViolinWriter]

MB has had the data, including shippers, import license numbers, vendors, and even more, delivered to them on a legal silver platter, and they have done nothing.

 

I would like to see proof of that....

 

In reading the rest of ViolinWriters post, I think she means she sent them to MB.

 

John

Indeed yes. That's what happened, as in that's when nothing happened.

 

[niksch]

I don't know, I've posted some pretty harsh things in this forum on FPN and have not been flagged--yellow or red. But maybe then they weren't that harsh, huh? but yes, there is a lot of MB hating going on over there based on Mr Lavin's original post. I agree with Allan and think that we all should learn the whole story before passing judgment. There is a lot of "supposin" about the Montblanc position, and also some "supposin" about RC's position as well. As such, we are just flogging dolphins by chasing perceptions, biases and predjudices.

 

There are some posts at PT to be interesting and have good points of view, and many raise good points for MB and RC. Those points of discussion have been seemingly debated at length. I cannot add much more without more information than the PDF file of the complaint that has been posted.

 

As for the law not always being right; maybe so, maybe no. We elect people to represent us in city, county, state and federal positions. These representatives are supposed to enact, enforce or repeal (I suppose) the laws in which we citizens are supposed to abide, and are supposed to act in the best interests of the citizens they represent. We know that doesn't always happen, but it is the system, and has worked for a couple centuries. I won't comment much on Prop 8, but didn't the elected judges, or those judges nominated by those representatives elected 'by the people', make the decisions that were later upheld by voters in this last election? Seems to me the people have spoken, and that is the the way our system works--for at least the next two or four years...

 

Eric

 

Interesting. I consider the discourses going on over at Pentrace (I image that's what you're talking about) to be quite healthy with lots of interesting points of views being put forth. I don't consider it bashing.

 

On the other hand, I don't feel as free to say things on FPN because it's so easy to be given the yellow flag and then the red flag over here for reasons that I don't think are reasonable. Quelle horreur! To be banished from Pendom! My two cents.

 

And regarding what people will say if RC is found wrong: my view is that the law is not always right. It certainly isn't if you take for example California's Proposition 8 which prohibits marriage between people of the same sex. That's now in the law books but absolutely wrong. Hence, if RC is found in the eyes of the law to be wrong, it does not necessarily mean that RC was in other people's views 'wrong". You know what I mean? Other examples aside from California's Proposition 8, not too long ago the USA has miscegenation laws making it illegal for people of difference races to marry. Now, I would also call that wrong.

 

Cheerios!

 

 

 

 

 

[Admin]

Fred,

>The Complaint again asserts that three capbands can only be used by MB: pish-posh.

gary

 

ps Thanks Deirde for linking to the Complaint.

 

 

Careful fella, that's some mighty strong language.

 

 

C'mon JD, quit poking at us ... surely you have something more productive to do...

[Admin]

I just had to stop in here and tell you all that I have the utmost respect and admiration for everyone I have seen post so far. No one flying off the handle, no one jumping to conclusions, no one bashing either MB or RC aimlessly. I just came from the discussion on another message board where it seems that jumping to conclusions and bashing is the treat of the day. It sure is nice to see some intelligent, thoughtful, and respectful conversation and discussion.

 

I tip my hat to all of you.

 

Allan

 

And so do we Allan. You too Niksch (looked and couldn't see any harsh posts... )

 

We have been somewhat concerned over the potential for liability here, but anxious to allow people the opportunity to express their opinions. We are most appreciative of the care our members have put into posting on sensitive issues such as this one - it is immensely rewarding to see that the confidence that we have in you is well deserved.

 

And more importantly, it is quite interesting to see the variety of different perspectives people are able to present - the S/W parallel really illustrated another viewpoint bringing the problem into closer focus; even if it was felt by another poster that the example wasn't representative of the current issue. Cerainly made me think...

 

Anyway, we're not here to debate, but to hand out a few Kudos...

 

Warm regards to all.

 

The FPN Admin Team

[Philip1209]

By Mont Blanc's reasoning, "Pimp My Ride" is a show about illegal activities.

[Allan]

By Mont Blanc's reasoning, "Pimp My Ride" is a show about illegal activities.

 

You know, I really disagree with you but I have to admit I laughed out loud at this :roflmho:

 

Allan

[thibaulthalpern]

We have been somewhat concerned over the potential for liability here, but anxious to allow people the opportunity to express their opinions. We are most appreciative of the care our members have put into posting on sensitive issues such as this one - it is immensely rewarding to see that the confidence that we have in you is well deserved.

 

Why is there concern for liability here? It's a forum. It's not a newspaper here. Or, has Montblanc really extended its field of power so wide now that we're being unnecessarily cautious? I'm curious...

[cakibler]

Its a forum within certain constraints of course. What isn't allowed is name calling, general character assassination, threats of violence or profanity. For the most part all the pen people I have had discourse with generally adhere to those rules of civility. This particular issue is a highly emotionally charged one. So is the general perception of MB over the past few years.

 

I have owned modern as well as vintage MB pens and feel recently there has been a definite slide in quality of barrels, caps and piston fill mechanisms. One thing I've always liked however was the smoothness and consistent quality of their nibs. The writer series pens have always intrigued me and some of them are very gorgeous pens indeed. My favorite being the Proust. Their prices mostly prevent me from acquiring any at the given time.

 

I think their stock offerings such as the Starwalker and Meisterstuck series, while nice pens I guess, are not of as high a quality as they should be for the price MB expects people to pay for them. Two MB pens that I owned, a 2000 vintage 149 and a similar vintage Le Grande roller ball, cracked on the cap and or barrel when dropped onto a floor from a height of 3 feet or fell out of my pocket (mind you not on purpose but by accident). No other pen I have owned, including some vintage hard rubber pens, has broken that easily. I got both pens repaired for the fee of $65 or higher by MB service, but I subsequently sold both as they just didn't appeal to me as some other vintage and modern pens do.

 

Currently I don't own any MB pens and with this latest episode may not again. To me the current product and the company are representative of what a great company has become and no longer holds much attraction for me. The modern pens I most like now are Pelikan, Waterman, and some of the Lamy pens. as well as recent vintage USA made Sheaffers and modern Italians such as Visconti, Aurora, and Stipula.

Edited December 6, 2008 by cakibler

[thibaulthalpern]

Its a forum within certain constraints of course. What isn't allowed is name calling, general character assassination, threats of violence or profanity. For the most part all the pen people I have had discourse with generally adhere to those rules of civility. This particular issue is a highly emotionally charged one. So is the general perception of MB over the past few years.

 

I have owned modern as well as vintage MB pens and feel recently there has been a definite slide in quality of barrels, caps and piston fill mechanisms. One thing I've always liked however was the smoothness and consistent quality of their nibs. The writer series pens have always intrigued me and some of them are very gorgeous pens indeed. My favorite being the Proust. Their prices mostly prevent me from acquiring any at the given time.

 

I think their stock offerings such as the Starwalker and Meisterstuck series, while nice pens I guess, are not of as high a quality as they should be for the price MB expects people to pay for them. Two MB pens that I owned, a 2000 vintage 149 and a similar vintage Le Grande roller ball, cracked on the cap and or barrel when dropped onto a floor from a height of 3 feet or fell out of my pocket (mind you not on purpose but by accident). No other pen I have owned, including some vintage hard rubber pens, has broken that easily. I got both pens repaired for the fee of $65 or higher by MB service, but I subsequently sold both as they just didn't appeal to me as some other vintage and modern pens do.

 

Currently I don't own any MB pens and with this latest episode may not again. To me the current product and the company are representative of what a great company has become and no longer holds much attraction for me. The modern pens I most like now are Pelikan, Waterman, and some of the Lamy pens. as well as recent vintage USA made Sheaffers and modern Italians such as Visconti, Aurora, and Stipula.

 

Thanks, but the lawsuit has nothing to do with the quality of MB's products. Those would be other issues. So I still don't understand what this forum in particular is fearful of with regards to liability.

 

[cakibler]

Let me try to answer your question more clearly. The FPN administration does not want any statements or charges made here by any poster that might attract the unwanted attention of certain companies or parties discussed here within. Such statements, charges or even individual names could potentially subject members and this entire FPN forum to unwanted close scrutiny and subsequent legal action.

 

The admin team is thus being extra vigilant and careful to balance the exchange of ideas and opinions posted here against the aforementioned possibility of legal action or their potential legal liability. In any case it's a fine line to walk.

 

A mentioned elsewhere in this thread, there exists another well known pen forum where a more free form exchange of opinions and beliefs, including my own, has been taking place on this very same subject. I am sure you don't need to be told what is is.

Edited December 6, 2008 by cakibler

[QM2]

This lawsuit incident leaves me disconcerted and torn. I do not agree with this company's practices, and this latest action has taken that to a new level. However, I can't help being very attached to some of their pens. And so I find myself unable to spitefully sell my collection or to even decidedly boycott them from now on. This is extremely frustrating.

[enricof]

This lawsuit incident leaves me disconcerted and torn. I do not agree with this company's practices, and this latest action has taken that to a new level. However, I can't help being very attached to some of their pens. And so I find myself unable to spitefully sell my collection or to even decidedly boycott them from now on. This is extremely frustrating.

 

I have a single beloved early '90 149 and long time ago decided not to buy new MBs (may be some vintage).

I bought it for the nib, the piston filler and the general design, not for the white star or the three-band design (that last detail is absolute crazy).

 

I like pens and want to support penmakers, and MB is not a penmaker anymore.

I'm not interested in and do not want to support producers of luxury status symbols.

 

I think you can't attach a white star sticker to any piece of (Potty Mouth) (jewel, pen, stationery, watch or whatever), claim is a masterpiece and worth thousands of $/€.

 

Personally, I think anyone should be able to customize and resell a MB pen, if it is clear that the pen is not a MB anymore, but I understand MB wants to protect the brand and not to have it associated to something they do not accept (like Mercedes with car tuners - Brabus is an "authorized tuner" so their cars can keep the star, other can't).

 

It is a standard "brand protection policy" for luxury brands, it seems it is their right to pretend it (even if I would have appreciated a gentleman agreement), so I think probably "law is with MB".

 

I just say "let them keep their stars, I'll buy something else".

 

- last minute

Note that, having chosen this policy, MB could for example go hunting for any pen seller offering MB pens with custom reground nibs, claiming "it is not a MB anymore", maybe asking to have the star and the three bands removed (and warranty is void, and so on).

 

 

Edited December 6, 2008 by enricof

[rogerb]

I agree with Fred that we should wait and see how this all pans-out, before making any hasty judgements about the parties involved.

 

However, there is no pen-maker or seller who I would feel unable to boycott if their business practices offended me sufficiently......there are whole oceans full of fish out there

 

Are we so addicted to pen-collecting that we are willing to compromise our moral/ethical principles for 'just another pen'?

[Deirdre]

This lawsuit incident leaves me disconcerted and torn. I do not agree with this company's practices, and this latest action has taken that to a new level. However, I can't help being very attached to some of their pens. And so I find myself unable to spitefully sell my collection or to even decidedly boycott them from now on. This is extremely frustrating.

I do love some of their pens, and I'm in the odd position of having no Montblanc pens at the moment, and only one pen from a Richemont-owned company (though a pre-Richemont pen).

[Deirdre]

I agree with Fred that we should wait and see how this all pans-out, before making any hasty judgements about the parties involved.

There's a 99% chance that it will involve a gag order of some kind, and therefore we will be very unlikely to see how this all pans out.

[QM2]

I agree with Fred that we should wait and see how this all pans-out, before making any hasty judgements about the parties involved.

 

However, there is no pen-maker or seller who I would feel unable to boycott if their business practices offended me sufficiently......there are whole oceans full of fish out there

 

Are we so addicted to pen-collecting that we are willing to compromise our moral/ethical principles for 'just another pen'?

 

It is really not so simple, Roger, and I am certainly not compromising my moral/ethical principles: I think the matter is not quite in that territory for me. I am frustrated by and resentful of the company, yet I like their products.

 

The question is, who will I be hurting more by getting rid of pens I like -- Montblanc or myself? And I think the answer is myself, because Montblanc would not feel the loss at all, whereas I would feel it quite a bit.

 

I have faced this dilemma with other companies before, where I disagree with their business practices but need their product/service. For example, there are two specific companies (neither of them MB) that have beautiful pens but very, very poor QC. I buy their beautiful pens despite knowing that there is a 80% chance of them not writing out of the box. Then I pay extra and send them to a professional to tune, after which they are flawless. I do not like these companies' lack of QC and I think it is unacceptable to sell high end pens in non-writing condition. But if I boycot them, I will be depriving myself of some of my very favourite pens.

 

I am not addicted to pen collecting in general. But I have a specific collector's focus/ aesthetic that interests me, and I am quite attached to the pens I love, which I think is not unnatural.

[QM2]

I do love some of their pens, and I'm in the odd position of having no Montblanc pens at the moment, and only one pen from a Richemont-owned company (though a pre-Richemont pen).

 

With Montegrappa (to which I think you are referring) there is no conflict for me, as I simply do not find their post-2005 pens appealing; they lack 90% of the qualities that I was drawn to in the original company, so the magic is gone.

 

With Montblanc on the other hand, there are several WE and POA models I'd quite like to have some day, not to mention the fact that I already have a very special (to me) collection of about 10 MB pens.

 

So look at it from this point of view: What would you do, if in this discussion MB was replaced with, say, Ancora or Stipula? I think that is equivalent to the position I find myself in.

Edited December 6, 2008 by QM2

[thibaulthalpern]

Are we so addicted to pen-collecting that we are willing to compromise our moral/ethical principles for 'just another pen'?

 

I was chuckling when I read that.

 

I don't own any real Montblanc but I do own a fake one, which let me clarify that I did not buy. It's a Montblanc rollerball that a vendor of handbags in China gave to me. I wasn't even in the store to buy anything. It was my aunt who was shopping around for bags and as I sat there waiting for her, the vendor in order to sweeten the deal for her, gave everyone in any aunt's party a fake MB.

 

Back then about 3 years ago, I didn't even know what he gave me was an "MB". I had never heard of that brand before. Yeah, isn't that incredible? Oh well. I wasn't that knowledgeable about penmakers back then although I was already using FPs for a while. Anyhow, one day, the rollerball pen accidentally fell on the floor and the jewel with the stars broke off from the rest of the pen. I picked it up, looked at the jewel and threw it away, considering that it was so heavy LOL. The pen now is without the splat. I never use the pen now.

Edited December 6, 2008 by thibaulthalpern