So... Penman Sapphire... why *did* Parker discontinue it?

[PaulT00]

I appreciate that the debate over Penman inks has probably been done to death, but I still don't understand why Parker discontinued the range, the Sapphire in particular. I've obtained a bottle of the stuff and I have to say it's a most unusual and very attractive colour - the nearest thing I've seen to it before was some Skrip blue which seemed to have become more concentrated after being left in a vacumatic for a while, but even that didn't have the very blue shade of Sapphire. On admittedly limited experience, it flows beautifully in both pens I've tried it in - a new fine-nib Phileas and a vintage Mabie Todd Blackbird with a fine flexy - and in particular transforms the writing experience with the Blackbird: I had it loaded with Diamine Imperial Blue before this, which is positively purple by comparison, and the flow characteristics are completely different... Sapphire really brings out the character in the flexy nib, and also seems to lubricate the point better than the Diamine.

 

So does anyone have any clues as to why it was discontinued? It's so much nicer than Quink blue that the latter is rather sad and washed-out by comparison. Can it really be so evil that Parker killed it off before it destroyed any more innocent pens, or was it purely an economic decision to concentrate on the cheaper more mainstream product? Why not just reformulate Quink to a similar colour?

 

The other question is why it seems virtually impossible to replicate the colour. I appreciate that PR have had a go, but opinions seem to differ on how successful they've been. What's so difficult about it? Surely it's just a "simple" matter of analysing the spectrum of a sample of the real thing, and then formulating a combination of current dyes which achieve the same hue and saturation, with some attention to correct flow and lubrication properties? Or is there some Parker patent somewhere: "US patent #82654008: formulation for an extremely intense blue writing ink" ? Have Parker copyrighted the colour or something?

 

One thing's for sure: I'm in imminent danger of trawling eBay for another bottle, before it's all gone!

[BillTheEditor]

I appreciate that the debate over Penman inks has probably been done to death, but I still don't understand why Parker discontinued the range, the Sapphire in particular. I've obtained a bottle of the stuff and I have to say it's a most unusual and very attractive colour - the nearest thing I've seen to it before was some Skrip blue which seemed to have become more concentrated after being left in a vacumatic for a while, but even that didn't have the very blue shade of Sapphire. On admittedly limited experience, it flows beautifully in both pens I've tried it in - a new fine-nib Phileas and a vintage Mabie Todd Blackbird with a fine flexy - and in particular transforms the writing experience with the Blackbird: I had it loaded with Diamine Imperial Blue before this, which is positively purple by comparison, and the flow characteristics are completely different... Sapphire really brings out the character in the flexy nib, and also seems to lubricate the point better than the Diamine.

 

So does anyone have any clues as to why it was discontinued? It's so much nicer than Quink blue that the latter is rather sad and washed-out by comparison. Can it really be so evil that Parker killed it off before it destroyed any more innocent pens, or was it purely an economic decision to concentrate on the cheaper more mainstream product? Why not just reformulate Quink to a similar colour?

 

The other question is why it seems virtually impossible to replicate the colour. I appreciate that PR have had a go, but opinions seem to differ on how successful they've been. What's so difficult about it? Surely it's just a "simple" matter of analysing the spectrum of a sample of the real thing, and then formulating a combination of current dyes which achieve the same hue and saturation, with some attention to correct flow and lubrication properties? Or is there some Parker patent somewhere: "US patent #82654008: formulation for an extremely intense blue writing ink" ? Have Parker copyrighted the colour or something?

 

One thing's for sure: I'm in imminent danger of trawling eBay for another bottle, before it's all gone!

Lots of people loved it (me too!), lots of people complained about it. Eventually the complaints got so loud, and so many influential people in the pen world damned the ink in print and online, that Parker pulled it. I personally never had a problem with it, and it was the only ink I used in my Sonnets for at least 4 years (I stopped because I couldn't get it any more). Of course, I don't have problems with my Sonnets, either, which makes me an unusual person, apparently. (I also clean and flush my pens regularly, which might just be part of the answer ...)

 

All of this is my opinion. Some of the influential complainers are here on FPN, a couple of them I am on very good terms with, and I don't want to get into any fights or ruin any relationships, so I'm not naming names or disputing their opinions.

[dcwaites]

I know many people (myself included) had problems with Parker Penman Ebony in Parker Sonnets, because of bad sealing with, or cracks in, the internal cap.

Having sealed my Sonnet cap, the problem went away.

 

I don't know of anybody who has had problems with the other Parker Penman inks, but that simply means that I haven't heard of them.

 

However, the Penman series of inks were Parker's first inks that were highly saturated with dyes, and need regular use and/or maintenance. People used to neglecting their pens, the way they were used to with Quink, ran into problems.

Some pen repairers, who got a whole lot of pens clogged with Penman ink, especially Ebony, developed a loathing of this ink series.

 

Recently, Parker have released a new batch of re-formulated Parker Penman Ebony, renamed to Penman Black, from its Shanghai factory. I bought a couple of bottles from Melpens, but they don't seem to have any at the moment.

This ink seems to have the same dyes as the original Ebony, but is a little runnier, so perhaps it will not clog as badly as the original.

 

You can make your own Penman Sapphire look-alike.

1) Start with a nice deep, pure, blue like PR American Blue

2) Darken it with a little pure blue-black. I make mine by using 1 part of Parker Quink Black to 10 parts of PQ Permanent Blue.

3) Add a green tinge with a little aqua blue like Diamine Aqua.

Ratio of Blue:Blue-Black:Aqua should be about 5:1:1

 

The only problem is that the PR and Diamine inks are wetter and feather/bleed more than the Penman inks.

I have recently re-discovered Noodler's Ottoman Azure, which is a nice blue, with a touch of green, and has similar wetness and feathering/bleeding properties to Penman Sapphire. If I can find a deep Noodler's blue to darken it up with, I might be able to come up with the ultimate Faux Penman Sapphire.

 

 

[Italicist]

You can make your own Penman Sapphire look-alike.

1) Start with a nice deep, pure, blue like PR American Blue

2) Darken it with a little pure blue-black. I make mine by using 1 part of Parker Quink Black to 10 parts of PQ Permanent Blue.

3) Add a green tinge with a little aqua blue like Diamine Aqua.

Ratio of Blue:Blue-Black:Aqua should be about 5:1:1

 

The only problem is that the PR and Diamine inks are wetter and feather/bleed more than the Penman inks.

I have recently re-discovered Noodler's Ottoman Azure, which is a nice blue, with a touch of green, and has similar wetness and feathering/bleeding properties to Penman Sapphire. If I can find a deep Noodler's blue to darken it up with, I might be able to come up with the ultimate Faux Penman Sapphire.

 

Thanks for giving the details of this recipe, Dcwaites, and the hints about your experiments with the Noodler's inks. Although I had only one bottle of Penman Sapphire, I enjoyed it thoroughly and had no more difficulty with it than with any other ink, so I look forward to trying to match the colour.

 

best wishes,

Italicist

[inkypete]

I was a Penman Sapphire user too and loved it. Don't recall any problems with my pens at the time. Would switch back tomorrow if it was available. Loved the colour and the flow was fine.

 

[Rob R]

 

 

You can make your own Penman Sapphire look-alike.

1) Start with a nice deep, pure, blue like PR American Blue

2) Darken it with a little pure blue-black. I make mine by using 1 part of Parker Quink Black to 10 parts of PQ Permanent Blue.

3) Add a green tinge with a little aqua blue like Diamine Aqua.

Ratio of Blue:Blue-Black:Aqua should be about 5:1:1

 

The only problem is that the PR and Diamine inks are wetter and feather/bleed more than the Penman inks.

I have recently re-discovered Noodler's Ottoman Azure, which is a nice blue, with a touch of green, and has similar wetness and feathering/bleeding properties to Penman Sapphire. If I can find a deep Noodler's blue to darken it up with, I might be able to come up with the ultimate Faux Penman Sapphire.

 

 

I note that you changed your formula from posts in the inck recipes. I just wonder what your thoughts are as to why you have the above rather than previous ones.

 

Thanks.

 

I am trying to come up with a formula for color and characteristics of the penman sapphire.

 

[Rob R]

I know many people (myself included) had problems with Parker Penman Ebony in Parker Sonnets, because of bad sealing with, or cracks in, the internal cap.

Having sealed my Sonnet cap, the problem went away.

 

I don't know of anybody who has had problems with the other Parker Penman inks, but that simply means that I haven't heard of them.

 

However, the Penman series of inks were Parker's first inks that were highly saturated with dyes, and need regular use and/or maintenance. People used to neglecting their pens, the way they were used to with Quink, ran into problems.

Some pen repairers, who got a whole lot of pens clogged with Penman ink, especially Ebony, developed a loathing of this ink series.

 

Recently, Parker have released a new batch of re-formulated Parker Penman Ebony, renamed to Penman Black, from its Shanghai factory. I bought a couple of bottles from Melpens, but they don't seem to have any at the moment.

This ink seems to have the same dyes as the original Ebony, but is a little runnier, so perhaps it will not clog as badly as the original.

 

You can make your own Penman Sapphire look-alike.

1) Start with a nice deep, pure, blue like PR American Blue

2) Darken it with a little pure blue-black. I make mine by using 1 part of Parker Quink Black to 10 parts of PQ Permanent Blue.

3) Add a green tinge with a little aqua blue like Diamine Aqua.

Ratio of Blue:Blue-Black:Aqua should be about 5:1:1

 

The only problem is that the PR and Diamine inks are wetter and feather/bleed more than the Penman inks.

I have recently re-discovered Noodler's Ottoman Azure, which is a nice blue, with a touch of green, and has similar wetness and feathering/bleeding properties to Penman Sapphire. If I can find a deep Noodler's blue to darken it up with, I might be able to come up with the ultimate Faux Penman Sapphire.

 

 

I agree there are two elements color and wetness/bleeding/feathering properites to making a substitue. I look forward to your results to get to the ultimate faux penman sapphire.

[GirchyGirchy]

I know many people (myself included) had problems with Parker Penman Ebony in Parker Sonnets, because of bad sealing with, or cracks in, the internal cap.

Having sealed my Sonnet cap, the problem went away.

How'd you seal your cap, with wax? I know Richard says not to, but I've sent mine back once and it still dries up like mad.

[solitaire]

I still have Parker Penman Saphire and use it without any problems.

 

From what I understand it was chemical/ mechanical problems that persuaded Parker to wthdraw it.

There was some difficulty with the material (maybe a plastic) used in Italian piston fillers.

 

For this reason I don't use it in my Italian pens but otherwise its great

If anyone has really authentic knowledge on this subject I would be keen to hear it

 

Solitaire

 

 

 

 

 

[dcwaites]

You can make your own Penman Sapphire look-alike.

1) Start with a nice deep, pure, blue like PR American Blue

2) Darken it with a little pure blue-black. I make mine by using 1 part of Parker Quink Black to 10 parts of PQ Permanent Blue.

3) Add a green tinge with a little aqua blue like Diamine Aqua.

Ratio of Blue:Blue-Black:Aqua should be about 5:1:1

 

The only problem is that the PR and Diamine inks are wetter and feather/bleed more than the Penman inks.

I have recently re-discovered Noodler's Ottoman Azure, which is a nice blue, with a touch of green, and has similar wetness and feathering/bleeding properties to Penman Sapphire. If I can find a deep Noodler's blue to darken it up with, I might be able to come up with the ultimate Faux Penman Sapphire.

 

I note that you changed your formula from posts in the inck recipes. I just wonder what your thoughts are as to why you have the above rather than previous ones.

 

Thanks.

 

I am trying to come up with a formula for color and characteristics of the penman sapphire.

Basically, as I got more inks to play with, and as my colour discrimination improved, I have been working on improving the formula.

 

The new formula is more of a generic formula, and the inks mentioned are examples rather than particular recommendations. The idea is that you can find an ink that looks like PR American Blue or Diamine Aqua, rather than actually having to use that ink.

 

Unfortunately, the PR and Diamine inks, especially Diamine, feather and bleed on the papers that are commonly available in Australia, more so than do the standard Noodler's inks. That's why I am currently looking at the Noodler's inks, because I get the same crisp line edges as I do with PP Sapphire.

 

 

[dcwaites]

I know many people (myself included) had problems with Parker Penman Ebony in Parker Sonnets, because of bad sealing with, or cracks in, the internal cap.

Having sealed my Sonnet cap, the problem went away.

How'd you seal your cap, with wax? I know Richard says not to, but I've sent mine back once and it still dries up like mad.

The problem was that with the early Sonnets, the inner cap sometimes cracked when the cap was assembled.

 

By melting some candle wax, till it was thin and runny, and dipping the top of the cap in the wax, it runs into the gaps and seals them. However, if you are going to do this, re-read Richard Binder's post on this.

 

With modern pens, it is more likely that the inner cap is just not sealing around the nib, and the wax solution will not fix this problem.

 

As well, Sonnets do like to be used regularly, and will dry out anyway if not used at least a couple of times a week.

 

 

[dcwaites]

I agree there are two elements color and wetness/bleeding/feathering properites to making a substitue. I look forward to your results to get to the ultimate faux penman sapphire.

Ask, and ye shall receive.

 

My latest version of Faux Penman Sapphire is in the Ink Recipes topic.

 

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_g_oFvX9K3R0/STiA7kg635I/AAAAAAAAAIA/axNNbV8rD-Q/FPS8b%20Writing%20Sample.red.jpg

 

 

[Rob R]

I agree there are two elements color and wetness/bleeding/feathering properites to making a substitue. I look forward to your results to get to the ultimate faux penman sapphire.

Ask, and ye shall receive.

 

My latest version of Faux Penman Sapphire is in the Ink Recipes topic.

 

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_g_oFvX9K3R0/STiA7kg635I/AAAAAAAAAIA/axNNbV8rD-Q/FPS8b%20Writing%20Sample.red.jpg

 

 

Ok that was me that asked. I read the link. However, I am getting the red x like a broken link. maybe my computer. I would love to see the scans / pic to see the color. I am excited that there is possibly the other characteristics of penman in your recipie.

 

Thanks.

[lapis]

Okay, it's just a question (of mine) but since nobody has yet mentioned it... what about Herbin's Eclat de saphir? Would that have any resemblance?

 

Mike

[Rob R]

I agree there are two elements color and wetness/bleeding/feathering properites to making a substitue. I look forward to your results to get to the ultimate faux penman sapphire.

Ask, and ye shall receive.

 

My latest version of Faux Penman Sapphire is in the Ink Recipes topic.

 

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_g_oFvX9K3R0/STiA7kg635I/AAAAAAAAAIA/axNNbV8rD-Q/FPS8b%20Writing%20Sample.red.jpg

 

 

Ok that was me that asked. I read the link. However, I am getting the red x like a broken link. maybe my computer. I would love to see the scans / pic to see the color. I am excited that there is possibly the other characteristics of penman in your recipie.

 

Thanks.

 

Thanks for fixing the pics. David, I think that you have nailed it my friend. I am going to try your recipie. I am excited about getting a faux penman sapphire not has the correct color but similiar characteristics as well.

 

Thanks for for your hard work and determination.