Colors that come out gray in photocopies

[Goodwhiskers]

In jobs like mine, distinguishing between originals of forms and photocopies of them is useful and possibly legally helpful.

 

I'm getting ready for another ink purchase.

 

In my experience of making black-and-white photocopies around Los Angeles:

 

black ink comes out according to its shade on the original document, and fairly accurately, at a machine's default setting for contrast;

 

red ink comes out as gray in newer machines that scan the page digitally (offices and copy shops), and as dark gray or black in older machines that project the page directly onto the drum (libraries);

 

blue ink comes out as gray, although darker blues such as Levenger Cobalt Blue come out as very dark gray and hard to distinguish from black;

 

Noodler's Blue-Black (one of the truer but darker blue-blacks on the market), from a Lamy Safari EF (lighter) and from a Cross ATX M (darker), comes out as very dark gray and hard to distinguish from black;

 

and brown and green inks come out as gray.

 

I would appreciate other reports of results of photocopying non-black inks, especially Noodler's Legal Lapis. Does it come out instantly distinguishable from black, or not?

 

Thanks for any additions to this thread !

[Goodwhiskers]

Sorry, Admins, I put this thread in the review form when it should have been in "Inky Thoughts." Could I trouble you to move it? Thanks!

[ipse dixit]

Steve:

 

Don't think I understand your question. If the original was filled out in blue, red, or any color other than black, or gray, any copy which is black or gray is a photo copy.

 

If you are concerned about color copiers then you might want to make a verification mark. A line or other mark that could be tested with water to see if it reacts. You would want an ink that is not "bullet proof". A color copy should show no change.

 

Where a document is scanned and printed on an ink jet printer the verification mark would react to the water, however, so would the printed portions of the document.

 

Questions of shades of gray don't seem to be the real issue.

 

Jim

[Goodwhiskers]

Thanks, Jim, for the quick reply.

I really am interested in shades of gray and black on photocopies. Some black inks are so well-behaved on cheap paper (Noodler's, especially) that one quick glance might not be enough to see a difference between them and photocopy toner. Hence my search for a bulletproof shade of blue that comes out more obviously gray. Noodler's Eternal Luxury Blue fits that requirement, but I'm hoping for something cheaper.

[Video11]

Maybe these will help. I wrote out this page on regular copy paper and scanned it in at the best setting my scanner would do. Then I photocopied the page and scanned in the photocopy. I don't have a pen inked with black at the moment, but printed some text in a standard font at the top of the page.

 

Below is the colour scan...

http://static.flickr.com/30/95030662_68d25ea63e.jpg

 

 

And here is the black and white photocopy scan...

http://static.flickr.com/39/95030631_6d58a7b94c.jpg

[Bill D]

I just shot a copy of Noodler's Gulfstream Blue on the small office copier/fax that we have here in our temporary offices. It came out as a very dark gray, that I could easily mistake for black. I believe that Gulfstream Blue and Legal Lapis are pretty close to each other. It's one of my favorite inks and the one I use most.

 

hope this helps,

Bill

[ipse dixit]

Looking at Video11's scanned image reminded me that at one time certain colors would not photo copy. That was the reason some courts did not allow blue ink for signatures on documents. Looking at the Quink washable blue brought that back to mind.

 

Don't know if there might be an ink out there that doesn't photo copy at all.

 

I once was invloved with a person who would take you letterhead from a letter and combine it with your signature and create a whole new letter in between. It would then be claimed you had sent the new letter. The rule was this guy always got printed colored letterhead even though office pracitice was to create the letterhead in the computer and print it out on the laser printer along with the rest of the letter. I have always used blue black ink to sign documents, in part because of this.

 

Please excuse the trip down memory lane.

 

Jim

[Gatorade]

I know that yellow highlighters don't show up on BW copies. We would take originals and hightlight "Original" across it and it wouldn't show up on the copy at all. I don't know if that is what you are asking.

[ipse dixit]

Gatorade:

 

I knew that, just forgot.

 

Wonder if Noodler's Firefly Yellow does the same?

 

Jim

[Gatorade]

My wife and I buy and sell houses constantly. The first one we bought I walked into the attorny's office and was all set to sign like crazy! I went earlier in the week and got a broad refill for my MB ballpoint. I was already to go when the attorney asked if that was blue ink? I said no it is black, he said here and handed me a blue bic stick. In the pen holder on the table was about 20 of them. All blue. He said when signing original documents always sign in blue. I guess I could have gone and got a blue refill for all the other houses but now I just use the bic sticks. Of course after buying 10-12 houses in 8 years the novelty wears off.

[Goodwhiskers]

Thank you, folks!

 

Video11, thanks for the scanned copies. Bill, thanks for your experiment and report, too. Both of you went beyond what I had asked for, and I'm grateful.

 

Jim and Gatorade, thanks for the accounts of your experiences.

 

Jim, if blue-black (which brand?) is good enough for you after your experience, anything a bit lighter than N's B-B should be good enough for me. I'm leaning toward Legal Lapis now.

 

Gatorade, the highlighter trick looks useful for instructional materials. Thanks! Yellow highlighter does come out as an extremely faint gray through my school's copier, but I could still write, "Original: yellow highlighter," in yellow highlighter, which would flag the original clearly enough to prevent me from handing it out with the copies and losing it :ph34r: .

[Gatorade]

Thank you, folks!

 

Video11, thanks for the scanned copies. Bill, thanks for your experiment and report, too. Both of you went beyond what I had asked for, and I'm grateful.

 

Jim and Gatorade, thanks for the accounts of your experiences.

 

Jim, if blue-black (which brand?) is good enough for you after your experience, anything a bit lighter than N's B-B should be good enough for me. I'm leaning toward Legal Lapis now.

 

Gatorade, the highlighter trick looks useful for instructional materials. Thanks! Yellow highlighter does come out as an extremely faint gray through my school's copier, but I could still write, "Original: yellow highlighter," in yellow highlighter, which would flag the original clearly enough to prevent me from handing it out with the copies and losing it :ph34r: .

No problem. Of course it works best when you highlight on a clear white area. We would use a big O for original rather than writing it all out.

[Video11]

Thank you, folks!

 

Video11, thanks for the scanned copies.

...snip...

Not a problem. Gave me a chance to play with both my pens and my new printer/scanner/copier. <Laughing>

[Video11]

...snip...

I was already to go when the attorney  asked if that was blue ink? I said no it is black, he said here and handed me a blue bic stick.

...snip...

Strange. I had the exact opposite situation. Our first house the lawyer types stopped me from signing in blue ink and made me sign in black because "black photocopied better". <shrug> I don't explain it, I'm just reporting it.

[Gatorade]

...snip...

I was already to go when the attorney  asked if that was blue ink? I said no it is black, he said here and handed me a blue bic stick.

...snip...

Strange. I had the exact opposite situation. Our first house the lawyer types stopped me from signing in blue ink and made me sign in black because "black photocopied better". <shrug> I don't explain it, I'm just reporting it.

I guess it isn't a standard law or anything. We had to sign 4-5 originals in blue so that everyone got an original. That way you could tell the originals from the copies. Of course now with color lasers I don't know if it matters that much.

[Claes]

Hi Goodwhiskers and all,

 

I am not sure that I understand what effect you are after.

Do you need an ink which, when copied, looks different than

"ordinary printed" text?

 

If so: you cannot ever be sure -- every kind of copying

equipment behaves differently from another. Some believe that

red == black, some think that a pure cyan == white.

 

So even if you find an ink which works nicely with copier A,

you cannot be sure how it behaves on copier B - unless you test

them all of course.

 

Here is a quick test using eight Noodler inks and a Canon

MF3110 scanner/copier, using all of its four modes: colour,

grayscale, black and white, text enhanced: scannedInks.pdf

 

Have fun!

Claes in Lund, Sweden

 

http://www.algonet.se/~claesg

[Gatorade]

Looks like whatever that yellow is will work for what you are doing. That is close to highlighter color.

[ipse dixit]

For a long time I use the same ink as pen I was filling. My Parker 75 had Parker Blue Black, the Sheaffer Imperial had Sheaffer Skrip Blue Black and the Mont Blanc had Mont Blanc Blue Balck.

 

Now I have discovered the wonder world of color. I have pens filled with Noodler's Luxury Blue, PR Midnight Blues and Levenger Cobalt. The Luxury Blue is used on checks and boat logs because it is water proof. The others are used on the basis of the pen they are in. The Pelikan has Midnight Blues in it. The Sailor Lapis Lazuli has Cobalt in it, and so on.

 

I have Leveger Cardinal Red in my Parker 75 for marking up documents. Other wise all shades of blue. I do have some bottles of black I never use.

 

Jim

[klemenv]

If you combine broader nib (stub or italic is even better), good flow and some inks with good shading properties, there will be distinction between black and grey parts of photocopy. I mean, as part of a letter is darker and part lighter, photocopy will have black-grey shading. (Ottoman Azure and Herbin Lie de Thea for example.)

[FLZapped]

Just curios what lamp color the photocopier had. Most have white, but some still use a green color.

 

The green one's make yellow highlighters bold whatever they've been swiped across.

 

Kodak uses a Xenon strobe.

 

Anyway, the point is, you might get different results with different lamp systems.

 

-Bruce