Is that a pen in your pocket....

[Marsilius]

Don't know if this is the write place, but...

 

I remember hearing a story from a friend who lived in the Netherlands during the late 1960s or early 70s. He was wearing his pen in his shirt pocket, and a lady told him "No, no....butchers and grocers wear their pens in their shirt pockets. A gentleman wears his pen in his jacket pocket."

 

I lived in Belgium for two years and never thought to ask about this, but did start putting my pen in my coat pocket (how quickly little things like that take hold.)

 

So now, with my very new lovely Esterbrook, I had a meeting today wearing a suit, and thought, "Oh no, if I put my pen in my jacket, no one will see it, but if they see it, they might think I am a butcher..." You get the idea. Pretty silly, but I could have wasted some serious time thinking "should I keep opening my jacket, find an excuse to write something, etc."

 

I hadn't even realized I had become pompous (fatuous yes, but.....)

 

So many issues here, but wonder if any of you folks know of this pen-in-the-jacket-pocket rule, and if not, will it upset things, close down the fountain pen network for a day while everyone worries about it, questions the paradox of basic fountain pen ostentation as a working class symbol, thinks of all the class assumptions inherent in this post, wonders how I managed to wear a suit in Los Angeles in August.....?

 

Best,

Mars

 

 

 

[wykpenguin]

Without sounding too much like a Communist, 'I am happy to be working class!'

 

Besides, I don't always wear a jacket.

[FrankB]

Yes, I have heard of this social standard. When I was a kid in the 1950's and 60's it sometimes came up as a thing gentlemen do. But it was very old school even then. I seldom wear a jacket these days, so I don't worry much about this convention. I usually carry a pen in my backpack anyway. Here in the U.S. I do not think it is a serious consideration.

 

Others from other countries will have to respond for their societies.

[RevAaron]

As someone who doesn't have a beef with sounding like a Red, I'll say it too:

 

"I am quite happy to be working class!"

 

In the US, I don't think anyone cares. It appears, to me, that even in a class conscious place like the UK it isn't a mark of a gentleman compared to many of the other options.

 

Having a Mont Blanc 149 somewhere conspicuous in a group of CEOs or lawyers might be saying "Oh! Oh! I'm important too!" but beyond similar situations, I really don't think it matters.

 

I keep my pens in my man purse, or clipped between my tshirt and undershirt. But then again, I work primarily at home.

 

Aaron

[lecorbusier]

A social myth I have heard before goes something like this:

 

If you are truly successful and wealthy and powerful et cetera et cetera, you would never in your right mind, carry a pen. Why? Because in meetings, you direct; you don't take notes. To carry a pen means you are a slavish worker; not a powerful commander. As a matter of fact, the more powerful the symbolism in the pen you carry (by brand or statue), the more you are trying to shake off (albeit unsuccessfully) that implicit low rank you are in.

 

I find this 'myth' rather disagreeably, and socially, pernicious. But I am sure that it must have some 'believability' to become a myth, though there is nothing in it that is neither usefully truthful nor socially ameliorative. But as the pursuit of symbolism goes, it may just find some followers who want to believe in this.

 

For me, I carry my pen in the inner pocket of my jacket if I wear one, and proudly bear it in my shirt pocket if there is one. As one who aspires to write, thoughts are too precious to be subsumed under explicit class consciousness. I also find my Notes function in my Ipod to be very useful for this without the problems of leaking ink!~

 

 

 

 

 

Don't know if this is the write place, but...

 

I remember hearing a story from a friend who lived in the Netherlands during the late 1960s or early 70s. He was wearing his pen in his shirt pocket, and a lady told him "No, no....butchers and grocers wear their pens in their shirt pockets. A gentleman wears his pen in his jacket pocket."

 

I lived in Belgium for two years and never thought to ask about this, but did start putting my pen in my coat pocket (how quickly little things like that take hold.)

 

So now, with my very new lovely Esterbrook, I had a meeting today wearing a suit, and thought, "Oh no, if I put my pen in my jacket, no one will see it, but if they see it, they might think I am a butcher..." You get the idea. Pretty silly, but I could have wasted some serious time thinking "should I keep opening my jacket, find an excuse to write something, etc."

 

I hadn't even realized I had become pompous (fatuous yes, but.....)

 

So many issues here, but wonder if any of you folks know of this pen-in-the-jacket-pocket rule, and if not, will it upset things, close down the fountain pen network for a day while everyone worries about it, questions the paradox of basic fountain pen ostentation as a working class symbol, thinks of all the class assumptions inherent in this post, wonders how I managed to wear a suit in Los Angeles in August.....?

 

Best,

Mars

 

[richardandtracy]

For me it's in jacket pocket if I wear a jacket, in the shirt pocket failing that, or somewhere else about my person if I don't have a shirt pocket.

 

Regards

 

Richard.

 

[Ray]

For me it's in jacket pocket if I wear a jacket, in the shirt pocket failing that, or somewhere else about my person if I don't have a shirt pocket.

 

Regards

 

Richard.

 

Yep, what he said. When an Englishman talks about a 'jacket pocket', of course, he means the inside pocket, since the outside one is only ever used for a chap's handkerchief, if at all. A pen in the outer jacket pocket is considered indescribably gauche here.

 

Ray

[duna]

The lady was correct, it is very unpleasant for the elegant man to wear a pen in a shirt pocket. Of course, gentlemen wear jackets in every season, hot temperature notwhistanding. Famous shirt brands never apply pockets on their shirts. But, like everything in life, this is theory, and an assiomatic one, everybody is free to act as they please, provided they respect all others, and wearing a visible pen is no harm

 

Nowadays, in few offices people wear ties, and shirts with pockets are everywhere, jackets once mandatory are often left aside, so the rule is devoid of much practical significance in everyday work, but the symbolic meaning is still there, and Dilbert is depicted with two pens protruding from his pocket. In formal circumstances, when wearing a tie, a pen must still reside in the jacket. It is one of the thousand impossible rules of elegance, like having sleeves with real buttons (not stitched) even if there are no longer circumstances to open buttons on the sleeves, and only trained eyes can see the difference (women can have such eyes, expecially if interested to men with very or selective -read 'expensive' - tastes). A significant exception is in countries in the Middle East, where working Muslim men in formal traditional attires (no jackets of course) must wear a pen with visible silvery clip, often in white gold/platinum and encrusted with diamonds (being the only 'jewel' permitted).

 

Of course, rules that are good in, say, Boston or London, are probably without meaning in Los Angeles. I live in mainland Venice, downtown I've personally seen countless 'americans' (US citizens) with T-shirt, short trousers and sport shoes, perfectly happy in their 'turistic' role (nothing wrong in this), but I have also seen many of them with 'impossible' clothing, absolutely perfect coats, wonderful ties, and such shoes to be the envy of a shoemaker. The former had ballpoints and other disposables buried in the pages of their guides, the latter nothing visible, but I bet they often had some nice toy well placed inside multiple layers of cloth.

[Amberviv]

Oh to be a woman with only a handbag to contain everything that matters...

[Bulldozer]

A social myth I have heard before goes something like this:

If you are truly successful and wealthy and powerful et cetera et cetera, you would never in your right mind, carry a pen. Why? Because in meetings, you direct; you don't take notes. To carry a pen means you are a slavish worker; not a powerful commander. As a matter of fact, the more powerful the symbolism in the pen you carry (by brand or statue), the more you are trying to shake off (albeit unsuccessfully) that implicit low rank you are in.

 

I find this 'myth' rather disagreeably, and socially, pernicious. But I am sure that it must have some 'believability' to become a myth, though there is nothing in it that is neither usefully truthful nor socially ameliorative. But as the pursuit of symbolism goes, it may just find some followers who want to believe in this.

 

Classic denial...

[DerMann]

It's a faux pas to wear anything but a handkerchief/pocket square in one's outer breast pocket for display. When I wear a pocket square, I keep my handkerchief in my rear pocket.

 

If I am in public, I wear a jacket. If I wear a jacket, a pen is clipped to my left, interior jacket pocket, which also contains my pocket watch.

[ruud2904]

Nothing wrong nowadays in the Netherlands if one has a nice pen in the shirt pocket. It might very well have been that it was not very decent to do in the 60s. Today, only very few people use fountain pens. So, if I see a nice one, I will allways give the owner a compliment.

[Shangas]

"Is that a gun in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?"

 

Hehehe...one of the greatest quotes in history.

 

IF I wear a coat with pockets, I keep my pens in a pen-pouch in the inner left pocket.

 

If I'm not wearing a coat, I keep them in my shirt-pocket, clipped to the edge of the pocket.

[Have Fun]

In a holster on my hip ready for a quick draw

 

Wondering why people are discussing ettiquette?

[sbertilsson]

Yes, the code in the UK suggests that a business shirt should never have a pocket. In addition, your jacket should always have a separately sewn pen pocket on the inside left.

 

Ah, I love the eccentricities of it all.

[richardandtracy]

...When an Englishman talks about a 'jacket pocket', of course, he means the inside pocket, since the outside one is only ever used for a chap's handkerchief, if at all. A pen in the outer jacket pocket is considered indescribably gauche here.

...

Oh, the humiliation of being seen with a pen in the outer pocket of a jacket! It'd be impossible to live it down... You'd have to move, change job and cut loose from all previous friends, and start again at the bottom of the social ladder.

 

Regards

 

Richard.

 

[DavidM1]

Well, my jackets and overcoat all have pen pockets just below the inside left breast pocket. It is the perfect place. Mainly my pens live in my brief case and I only carry a slender Cross ballpoint in my suit jacket - handy for meetings etc.

 

I don't know why pen pockets are still de rigueur here and not in the US but this did come up once before.

 

 

 

 

 

[lapis]

Hey, this is a really neat posting.

 

It being summer here now, I wear only a T-shirt (well, upwards from W. C. Fields' gun pocket vicinity) and my T-shirts all have pockets, otherwise I can't carry my pens in them.

That's why I bought my Optima Mini version, but a Pelikan 320 is next.

I don't like bags or men's purses so I do, when it's cooler outside, wear a vest. I didn't buy and don't collect them for any other purpose than this: They have about 12 pockets (each) and I always carry a pen or two in them in an inside pocket, to protect them.

 

Mike

[Niggle]

I'm surprised to hear of so many people placing pens in their shirt pockets. Round here, that's not a sign of class but of nerdiness, especially an engineering style nerdiness. (Isn't that why Dilbert has so many pens in his pocket?) It must be different in other parts of the world, because I can't believe so many fine FPNers could also be nerds!

 

One of the handy things about spiral bound notebooks is that a pen can usually be slipped securely inside the spiral for easy carrying.

 

[richardandtracy]

I'm surprised to hear of so many people placing pens in their shirt pockets. Round here, that's not a sign of class but of nerdiness, especially an engineering style nerdiness. ...

Being and engineer, I don't see any problem with being classified as an engineer. OK.

 

Regards

 

Richard.

Edited August 6, 2008 by richardandtracy