Leaky Vacumatic

[grimakis]

I bought a seemingly working Parker Vacumatic in Azure Blue for a grand total of $85 dollars. Supposedly restored and working, I was really excited about using it daily. I shortly discovered ink manages to leak out when it undergoes jerky movement... AKA walking. The ink escapes via the breather hole. I took the section out and tested the suction on the barrel, it stuck to my finger for at least 15 seconds when it was wet.

 

Pictures reveal a small chip/"hole"in the section where the breather tube is fed through. Is this the source of my leak? If so, is it repairable... by me

 

 

http://www.zlixgames.com/images/vac1.jpg

http://www.zlixgames.com/images/vac2.jpg

 

[SMG]

That hole you are pointing at is the back of the ink channel, it is intended to be there. If the pen is leaking from the breather hole of the nib, then you may have a slight air leak at the diaphragm, a pinhole in the barrel, or the section itself was not sealed properly and air is getting in there.

 

Because you do not mention ink fingers when writing, it most likely is not from the section not being sealed correctly. But looking at the section in your image does not show alot of sealant on the threads, at least not as much as I usually apply. Was the section difficult to remove?? Did you have to heat it?

 

When walking, is the pen held nib up? Is the feed set tightly to the nib?

 

If the restorer removed and replaced the nib, but did not get it into the correct rotational alignment with the section, it may seep, or even leak when downward motion is applied and stopped to the pen.

 

If you know who restored the pen, contact them and ask for it to be corrected.

 

Cheers,

Sean

[grimakis]

I didn't apply any sealant... could that be the problem? If so, what should I use as sealant? Like I said... The pen hung from my tongue indefinitely, I had to take it off myself at around 30 seconds. I figure the suction is real good, and thats why it would stay stuck to my tongue.

Edited June 19, 2008 by grimakis

[SMG]

  Quote

I didn't apply any sealant

 

There is your problem. The section is allowing air into the system and letting ink out the easiest way, the feed.

 

Get some of Giovanni's section sealant, and only this, not anything else, not teflon tape, not silicon grease, not chewing gum, not ruber cement. Apply some to the threads of the section and screw it into the barrel. Heat what squeezes out with your hair dryer and wipe it off with a lint free cloth. You should be good to go.

 

If it leaks again, then you need to take a closer look at the section and see if the nib and feed were knocked and placed back in the incorrect alignment to the section. I think that the section sealant is probably the answer though.

 

Cheers,

Sean

[FarmBoy]

  grimakis said:

... The pen hung from my tongue indefinitely, I had to take it off myself at around 30 seconds. ..

 

Any pictures? This just makes me laugh having visions of blue teeth and all.

 

Todd

 

[Hirsch]

You can get a good section sealer at an automotive supply store:

 

http://www.permatex.com/products/Automotiv...lass_Sealer.htm

 

Makes a great seal, and is easily reversible. Remember that you need two seals. In addition to sealing the barrel and section, you also need to insure that the breathing tube is sealed into the feed. A touch of shellac at the base of the breathing tube can do this, but make sure that nothing gets into the ink channel.

[Ron Z]

  Hirsch said:

You can get a good section sealer at an automotive supply store:

 

http://www.permatex.com/products/Automotiv...lass_Sealer.htm

 

Makes a great seal, and is easily reversible. Remember that you need two seals. In addition to sealing the barrel and section, you also need to insure that the breathing tube is sealed into the feed. A touch of shellac at the base of the breathing tube can do this, but make sure that nothing gets into the ink channel.

 

NO, NO, NO!!

 

Please do not use Permatex in your pen!!! The section sealant sold by Giovanni is a different material, rosin based, and safe for pens. I can not say the same for Permatex, which is intended for automotive use. Nor do I recommend using any silicone sealant on the threads.

 

You also do not need sealant where the breather tube goes into the feed. That is designed to be a friction fit, no adhesive or sheallac is needed nor should it be used.

Edited June 19, 2008 by Ron Z

[MYU]

Speaking of sealant, would Giovanni's adhesive also work for securing inlaid nibs that have come loose?

[Buzz J]

  MYU said:

Speaking of sealant, would Giovanni's adhesive also work for securing inlaid nibs that have come loose?

 

I wouldn't imagine so. It's perfect as a sealant, but it doesn't really exhibit anything but the weakest adhesive qualities.

[SMG]

  MYU said:

Speaking of sealant, would Giovanni's adhesive also work for securing inlaid nibs that have come loose?

Captain Tolley's Creeping Crack Cure is what is recommended. I have a bottle here that I bought at West Marine in Syracuse when I was down (over?) visiting Ron Z. I have not used it yet, but that is what Richard recommends for inlaid Sheaffer nibs. I do need to get around to fixing my PFM some day.

 

It's a little embarassing when a repair guy owns a pen that leaks or does not write perfect everytime. :embarrassed_smile:

 

Cheers,

Sean

[SMG]

  Hirsch said:

You can get a good section sealer at an automotive supply store:

 

http://www.permatex.com/products/Automotiv...lass_Sealer.htm

 

Makes a great seal, and is easily reversible. Remember that you need two seals. In addition to sealing the barrel and section, you also need to insure that the breathing tube is sealed into the feed. A touch of shellac at the base of the breathing tube can do this, but make sure that nothing gets into the ink channel.

I was being somewhat facetious when I mentioned rubber cement, chewing gum, etc etc. But I did that for a reason. Everytime someone posts about using sealant on a Vacumatic barrel, someone else always says "what about this substance? Can I use this to seal my Vac"? The accepted correct non damaging solution for sealing Vacumatic sections (among other pens) is Giovanni's Section Sealant. End of story, full stop.

 

I know of one other sealant, but it is not on the open market yet and I have been sworn to secrecy. And no I don't have any of this magical new sealant yet. HINT HINT, NUDGE NUDGE, you know who you are.

 

BTW Ron is DA Man when it comes to Vac's, what he says is law to me, when I repair a Vac.

 

Cheers,

Sean

[grimakis]

I was going to try some teflon grease, which says its used for O rings and threaded Parts. But I suppose I will just order some section sealant from Tryphon.

Edited June 20, 2008 by grimakis

[Hirsch]

  Ron Z said:

NO, NO, NO!!

 

Please do not use Permatex in your pen!!! The section sealant sold by Giovanni is a different material, rosin based, and safe for pens. I can not say the same for Permatex, which is intended for automotive use. Nor do I recommend using any silicone sealant on the threads.

 

You also do not need sealant where the breather tube goes into the feed. That is designed to be a friction fit, no adhesive or sheallac is needed nor should it be used.

 

There is never any one way to do a particular repair.

 

I've been using Permatex for awhile now. I was sold when trying to seal a Doric, and most other sealants simply didn't work. Many products that work well on pens were designed for other uses. The real question is whether or not they work on pens. Permatex makes a good seal, and is very easily removable if you change your mind. It has not damaged any threads that I know about, and I've used it frequently.

 

If you get a good friction grip, then you indeed do not need sealant at the breather tube. However, the breathing tube does not appear to be the original, which raises questions. If the tube is at all loose, the pen will not fill properly, and can exhibit leaking. It's careful work, due to the possibility of blocking the air channel or getting something in the ink channel, but I normally put some sort of seal around a breather tube if I'm not convinced the fit is tight. It saves going back into the pen at a later time after you've got everything else closed, and realize that occasionally you really do need a seal there.

 

If you're using one of the modern replacement tubing materials, then a seal is frequently needed at the breather tube, IME. They just don't fit well enough much of the time.

 

SMG, I was not asking "What about Permatex"? I've used it and it works well. It's also cheap and readily available. Put it down as an alternative method for sealing a Vac. Beeswax is another, but it's a pain to do. There is no such thing as "end of story, full stop". If someone has had problems with Permatex, I'd love to hear them, and will alter my recommendation if they prove to be true. However, the fact that Permatex is not Giovanni's sealant, and may not be commonly used, is not relevant to its merits.

[MYU]

  SMG said:

Captain Tolley's Creeping Crack Cure is what is recommended. I have a bottle here that I bought at West Marine in Syracuse when I was down (over?) visiting Ron Z. I have not used it yet, but that is what Richard recommends for inlaid Sheaffer nibs. I do need to get around to fixing my PFM some day.

Thanks, Sean. I found it for a very good price at Online Marine ($12.99 for the 8oz bottle, $9.13 shipping). Just search for "Tolley".

 

[Gerry]

  Hirsch said:

  Ron Z said:

NO, NO, NO!!

 

Please do not use Permatex in your pen!!! The section sealant sold by Giovanni is a different material, rosin based, and safe for pens. I can not say the same for Permatex, which is intended for automotive use. Nor do I recommend using any silicone sealant on the threads.

 

You also do not need sealant where the breather tube goes into the feed. That is designed to be a friction fit, no adhesive or sheallac is needed nor should it be used.

 

There is never any one way to do a particular repair.

 

I've been using Permatex for awhile now. I was sold when trying to seal a Doric, and most other sealants simply didn't work. Many products that work well on pens were designed for other uses. The real question is whether or not they work on pens. Permatex makes a good seal, and is very easily removable if you change your mind. It has not damaged any threads that I know about, and I've used it frequently.

 

If you get a good friction grip, then you indeed do not need sealant at the breather tube. However, the breathing tube does not appear to be the original, which raises questions. If the tube is at all loose, the pen will not fill properly, and can exhibit leaking. It's careful work, due to the possibility of blocking the air channel or getting something in the ink channel, but I normally put some sort of seal around a breather tube if I'm not convinced the fit is tight. It saves going back into the pen at a later time after you've got everything else closed, and realize that occasionally you really do need a seal there.

 

If you're using one of the modern replacement tubing materials, then a seal is frequently needed at the breather tube, IME. They just don't fit well enough much of the time.

 

SMG, I was not asking "What about Permatex"? I've used it and it works well. It's also cheap and readily available. Put it down as an alternative method for sealing a Vac. Beeswax is another, but it's a pain to do. There is no such thing as "end of story, full stop". If someone has had problems with Permatex, I'd love to hear them, and will alter my recommendation if they prove to be true. However, the fact that Permatex is not Giovanni's sealant, and may not be commonly used, is not relevant to its merits.

 

Hi there Hirsch.

 

Not to be argumentative or anything, but I was wondering whether you would care to tell us a little more about yourself. With only 23 posts I hope you'll forgive me for noting that we don't know very much about you and will be somewhat at a loss as how to view your recommendations as far as experience goes with pen repair.

 

Ron's experience goes back some 18 years, and his web site HERE gives a bit of his background. Sean also repairs pens professionally. Both offer serious repair work, professionally done, and serious advice, based on a great deal of experience.

 

While I sometimes rail at what might appear as pedantic positions taken regarding some processes too, I cannot fault either for steering our members towards a proven, reliable and generally accepted solution for leakage in vacs. While there may be others that work, there are a host of potential drawbacks that can be discovered, much to one's chagrin.

 

So before putting it down as an alternative, how about a little background to allow us to knowledgeably evaluate your recommendation in light of your experience with the product and it's performance over time when used in pen repair?

 

Otherwise, it's just opinion - something which one is obviously free to express, but which needs to be received as such, and followed cautiously (speaking for our less experienced members that is...).

 

Best regards,

 

Gerry

[Hirsch]

  Gerry said:

While I sometimes rail at what might appear as pedantic positions taken regarding some processes too, I cannot fault either for steering our members towards a proven, reliable and generally accepted solution for leakage in vacs. While there may be others that work, there are a host of potential drawbacks that can be discovered, much to one's chagrin.

 

So before putting it down as an alternative, how about a little background to allow us to knowledgeably evaluate your recommendation in light of your experience with the product and it's performance over time when used in pen repair?

 

Otherwise, it's just opinion - something which one is obviously free to express, but which needs to be received as such, and followed cautiously (speaking for our less experienced members that is...).

 

Best regards,

 

Gerry

 

Hi Gerry,

 

I'm a collector, not a professional restorer, and do not normally repair/restore pens for others. Maybe that will change in the future, maybe not. Relative to most, I'm a newbie. I would class myself as strictly amateur, but am being mentored in repair techniques by a well-regarded professional, and estimate that I have worked on approximately 200+ pens in one way or another. Not a large number by professional standards, perhaps, but also enough to give me some idea of what works and what doesn't (and also enough to make me aware of my own ignorance in many areas of repair). Some techniques were taught to me, some come out of books/repair manual/web sites, and some I've simply worked out when traditional methods didn't work as well as I wanted. I have a very low tolerance for pens that do not work when I want them to.

 

As far as breather tubes, I've restored some Vac's, a half dozen Ink-Vue's, some Skyline's, and a Seth Crocker (I'm not sure just how many of the pro's have worked on a Seth Crocker pump filler with breathing tube, but I've got one). I've also done several European pens with breather tubes, including bulb fillers, accordion sac fillers, etc. Particularly on the European pens, the vent for the breather tube may not be into the channel. Accordingly, if the tube is not sealed into the feed properly 1) the pen won't fill properly and 2) you've got a really nasty leak. I'll leave it to your imagination how I learned that (it wasn't pretty). I have probably made every mistake possible in getting pens to work, but work they do. If it can be said that one learns from one's mistakes, then in that regard I may know more than most

 

The heart of my collection is some 60+ Chilton/Crocker/Seth Crocker pens. As I'm sure you are aware, the pneumatic filling mechanism of most of these pens requires an air-tight seal, or they simply won't fill correctly. Accordingly, I have experimented with a variety of both traditional and unusual section sealers, until I found something that appears to work every time with no hassle. I've been using the Permatex almost exclusively for about nine months when I need a seal, but cannot speak to long-term results over years, if only because I don't have anything that's been treated for that long. My criteria in a section sealant are: 1) non-damaging, 2) easy to apply 3) reliable seal, and 4) easy to remove, if necessary. So far, Permatex fits the bill.

 

Whew. I hope that serves by way of where I'm coming from. I am most emphatically NOT saying the Permatex is in any way superior to Giovanni's sealant, nor am I trying to counter Ron's advice. He knows far more than I about pen repair. However, unless Ron has tried Permatex, and found a problem with it (which I would dearly love to know about), I do object to "NO NO NO". I've used it successfully, but don't know anything about his experience with it. FWIW, there are other silicone "glues" that I absolutely won't recommend for pen use. Tried them, threw them out. The Permatex was a happy exception.

 

Best regards,

 

Hirsch

Edited June 20, 2008 by Hirsch

[fountainbel]

Can someone of the specialists list the benefits of Giovanni's section sealant compared to the the use of common shellac?

Section sealant surely is a good sealing agent, but in my experience shellac is just as efficient.

thanks, Francis

[OldGriz]

  fountainbel said:

Can someone of the specialists list the benefits of Giovanni's section sealant compared to the the use of common shellac?

Section sealant surely is a good sealing agent, but in my experience shellac is just as efficient.

thanks, Francis

 

The biggest benefit for me of the section sealant over shellac on a vacumatic it the ease of reversal in taking the section back out....

Unlike shellac the section sealant does not harden and being thicker I think it gives a more air tight seal...

[Ron Z]

Traditional Permatex has solvents in it, and some versions are chemical/petroleum resistant. Plastics can be, and are, damaged by solvents. Celluloid is funny stuff to begin with, and I would rather not expose it to unknowns.

 

I've used Permatex in various automotive repairs, and know it's properties. Yes, I'm aware that there are different versions, but even the non-hardening variety can be rather harsh, requiring strong solvents to remove them from your hands. I suppose that one could look up the compound if they provide the MSDS data on line. I've also picked silicone out of the threads of pens after the seal has failed and the pen was sent to me for repair. I also don't know how the acids in the silicone sealants will react with the celluloid. Sometimes it can take quite a while for the breakdown to occur - and then it can be quite rapid. Like over night.

 

The section sealant that Giovanni sells is rosin based. From what I've been able to read, much of the time rosin is cut with castor oil. The rosin that Giovanni uses is a dark grade of rosin. Sheaffer used a light amber rosin, which IMO is a better rosin, in their sealant. Some might argue against sealant with castor oil in it, but Sheaffer used it as a thread sealant in the vacuum fillers, and all of the snorkel/touchdown pens from the time they were introduced. They were still using it when the repair center in Ft. Madisonwas closed at the end of March. I know - I was there in February. That's a long history to back up the contention that it's safe to use.

 

The advantage to the rosin based sealants is that it turns soft and releases at a relatively low temperature - lower than shellac. But when at room temperature, it provides a good seal and also some resistance to the parts separating by themselves. Permatex OTOH can be very difficult to move, and some of it is designed to be temperature resistant.

 

My preference and recommendation is based on the principle that one should use the safest and if possible, reversible materials. The rosin based sealants have a long track record. They were used early on, and the pens have survived without negative results. That being the case, I think that they are the the better option for pen repair.

 

BTW - I used bees wax, and toilet bowl ring seal wax back in my early days of repair. It worked, but I switched to shellac as a better option. Rosin based sealants weren't available back then. Now that they are, I use them.

 

Because I know that there are many inexperienced people reading this board, I tend to react rather strongly when I see something suggested that in my opinion will or could damage a pen. I try to make sure that my information is as accurate as possible when I do write, and tend not to post when I'm simply not sure about an answer.

 

I should add that I don't know everything about pen repair. That's why I was rooting through a Parker repair manual looking for information earlier today. But I do have a lot of pens go through my hands, and have had the benefit of many discussions with colleagues over the years.

 

  Quote

Accordingly, if the tube is not sealed into the feed properly 1) the pen won't fill properly and 2) you've got a really nasty leak. I'll leave it to your imagination how I learned that (it wasn't pretty). I have probably made every mistake possible in getting pens to work, but work they do. If it can be said that one learns from one's mistakes, then in that regard I may know more than most wink.gif

 

Yup! I've often said that if I say "don't do that!!!" it's often because I did that! :bonk:

 

When I put a breather tube in, it's often a little over size (the original was), and has to be tapered. Then I use a technique that I used on my trumpet in Jr High when installing the mouthpiece- press and give a little turn as you press. It gives a snug, secure fit. (we won't talk about the time I just jammed it in, and got it so stuck that they had to braze the tubing.....)

Edited June 20, 2008 by Ron Z

[SMG]

One point to remember, rosin based sealants were developed by the pen manufacturers back in the 1930's. They have been proven not to harm pen materials since.

 

When Permatex has that track record, that amount of data points behind it and has not damaged a pen, I might think about using it.

 

Section sealant is not the only thing that one can use to seal a barrel, true. I never said that you could not use other sealants. I did state that the "commonly accepted" solution was Giovanni's section sealant. It is made to the Parker original formula, and works.

 

It's benefit over shellac is that it is more gap filling, pliable when dry and easier to reverse with heat. Plus, I kinda like the smell of it.

 

BTW Hirsch, yes you have repaired a few pens. Ron has done more Vacs than probably anyone alive at this time. I myself have restored about 200 or so Vacumatics now over the last 3 years, as well as other filling systems. So now we all know each others "credentials" if you will.

 

Cheers,

Sean