Bulletproof, Waterproof, UV resistance, What Next?

[mturk]

First, I do not want this to end up as some sort of anti-Noodlers thread - I want to discuss the waterproof, fade-proof qualities of any brand. I've been using fountain pens since my junior year of high school (1970) and for about the last ten years, I try to use a fountain pen exclusively for any writing that doesn't demand a Sharpie or Magic-Marker, even though I identify myself as a vintage collector rather than a "user". So, in the last nearly forty years, I really can't remember more than two or three times when I really needed waterproof ink. I've used fountain pens for official business in all sorts of environments (deserts, tropical rainforests, etc), and never really had a problem. When I read some of these postings I wonder, what do people really do with the stuff they write, throw it in the swimming pool? Leave it out for weeks in the August sun? Based on personal experience, "bulletproof" inks basically put a bullet in two reasonably valuable Parker 51 vacs, which revived only after major surgery. After that, one more bottle (for envelopes) wound up down the sink after I noticed about an eighth of an inch of semi-solid "goo" in the bottom of the bottle.

So my question is, do all of you waterproof ink users really think you need that extra protection? Are you worried about long-term effects on your pens?

[freznow]

I have mostly cheap pens, so 'ruining' them doesn't matter to me. But I have heard of many success stories with bulletproof ink, so I'm hoping it'll work alright for me.

 

Personally, my biggest concern is actually that I cry a LOT when I write. Don't ask me why. Sometimes I write to get out what I was crying about, other times I cry because of what I write, other times it's just for no apparent reason. Maybe I ought to tilt my head away from the paper or maybe those 5 words partially washed away aren't important, but... I'd rather just get waterproof ink.

 

And a big part of why I never kept a journal is because "Why ought I to write this if it'll just disappear if I drop it in a puddle? If I want to write something by the swimming pool and it gets splashed on? Heck if I even just spill my drink?" Maybe I'm more accident prone than you, and maybe I value permanence of words more, but I see a definite reason to use at the very least waterproof inks. Bulletproof is an added bonus for me.

 

So it really just depends on your priorities in your writing and pens. And if you're the type of accident prone person who will get water splashed on it. Maybe somebody else has some different reasons, too. Either way, I can see that every ink and pen has it's place. Otherwise there wouldn't be a market for them, and they wouldn't be sold.

Edited June 10, 2008 by freznow

[Melnicki]

I once somehow managed to deposit my clipboard of months of seminar notes into a puddle (my incompletely-zippered backpack flew open while running between buildings, launching the clipboard out of it.) Seems improbable, but it happened!

 

I work in a biochemistry lab and thus wash my hands a lot, and I hate waiting for them to dry before touching anything I've written with a FP.

 

I drink several cups of tea per day while I'm working, and sometimes spill a bit on my nearby papers (even though I use a saucer). I also have a moustache which enables any liquid I drink to drip from it, if I don't wipe it right away with a kerchief.

 

Once my lunch (soup leftovers) managed to escape the tupperware AND the plastic bag holding the tupperware, in my backpack, while I was commuting. It severely wet my journal and "list notebook". Many words are now illegible.

 

Of course this doesn't mean everyone needs waterproof inks; each person has their own lifestyle, preferences, and threshhold of annoyance/devastation.

Edited June 10, 2008 by Melnicki

[lak611]

I work in a biochemistry lab and thus wash my hands a lot, and I hate waiting for them to dry before touching anything I've written with a FP.

Twenty years ago, I spilled my organic chemistry experiment all over my lab journal. The Parker Quink I had written with survived.

 

[Melnicki]

I work in a biochemistry lab and thus wash my hands a lot, and I hate waiting for them to dry before touching anything I've written with a FP.

Twenty years ago, I spilled my organic chemistry experiment all over my lab journal. The Parker Quink I had written with survived.

 

Wow! That's cool! And quink is "washable"!!

 

But perhaps there wasn't a lot of water in the experiment? I have a squirt bottle of 70% ethanol on my bench, and occasionally I squirt my FP water-test comparisons with it before the water. Some things move a lot less than with water, surprisingly. That's strange because Ethanol is a good solvent. But the results speak for themselves. Yep, I just verified this right now.

[lak611]

I work in a biochemistry lab and thus wash my hands a lot, and I hate waiting for them to dry before touching anything I've written with a FP.

Twenty years ago, I spilled my organic chemistry experiment all over my lab journal. The Parker Quink I had written with survived.

 

Wow! That's cool! And quink is "washable"!!

 

But perhaps there wasn't a lot of water in the experiment? I have a squirt bottle of 70% ethanol on my bench, and occasionally I squirt my FP water-test comparisons with it before the water. Some things move a lot less than with water, surprisingly. That's strange because Ethanol is a good solvent. But the results speak for themselves. Yep, I just verified this right now.

I'll have to check to see what it was. I still have the journal.

 

[Viseguy]

Bulletproof, Waterproof, UV resistance

Of the three, UV resistance is by far the most important to me. I find it disconcerting to see my writing fade within a matter of days (e.g., Waterman B-B) or weeks. I routinely refer to notes and journal entries I've made years ago; I like them to remain legible.

 

Waterproofness is desirable, but I'll usually settle for some degree of water resistance. (Despite my reputation for hydromania.)

 

"Bulletproof" is a nifty concept, but it's probably overkill for most applications. Still, it's nice to have for permanent records, checks, envelopes, etc. As an alternative to India ink and a dip pen, or beeswax. (And I like Nathan Tardif's concept of making the FP more competitive with BPs, gelsticks and the like, though I question whether that has really happened. Umm, I don't think so.)

 

I use modern pens, so I'm not concerned about damaging irreplaceable objects. (Although, in four solid years of Noodler's use, none of my pens has had to be replaced or repaired.)

 

The question is largely de gustibus, of course.

[scribbler77]

So my question is, do all of you waterproof ink users really think you need that extra protection? Are you worried about long-term effects on your pens?

 

I want it for some things and don't need it for others. But I have had notes I had made for future reference for the articles and books I write become illegible if they were exposed to dampness in storage. I lost a whole notebook last winter when the basement flooded and though the notebook was not submerged, enough water wicked up through the cardboard box to dampen the pages and smear the ink to illegibility. If course the box should not have been in the basement, etc., etc., but it is comforting to have some insurance. Total "bulletproofness" is not necessary for most uses--I don't work in a chemistry lab and rarely run the risk of spilling solvents on the page, but I have upset more than one cup of tea or glass of water when I was writing. (So far, no hundred-proof vodka; fingers crossed.)

 

UV resistance is of some importance. Although I don't do calligraphy for display, I like to feel that there will not be significant fading for a few years at least. Some of my notes from the 1970s, written with Montblanc black, are seriously faded though they have not been exposed to sunlight.

 

I have been using water resistant inks, including Noodlers, with no pen damage whatever. But I normally write with modern pens. I don't mind if they are cheap--in fact I prefer the cheap ones, since I tend to lose those I carry in my coat pocket.

 

I guess my attitude is that although I don't need waterproof inks all the time, I feel more comfortable using them so long as the color is one I want. I am willing to test the inks I like in several pen/paper combinations, until I find one that works. I have experienced no pen damage, but then I don't use the few vintage pens I have for everyday writing. The only pens I have had trouble cleaning are those that I let inks, including washable ones, dry in the pen for a long time.

[dmmcf]

I'm thinking fireproof might be nice to have.

 

I've only recently begun writing things I think I might want to read years from now in their original, longhand form. I do have research notes going back twenty-some years, but they're virtually all in pencil (and, alas, on cheap paper which is showing its age). I probably don't need bulletproofness from day to day, but over decades of storage I think the odds are good that something will happen to any given journal or notebook. For that reason, I'm happy to have inks like Noodler's available.

 

As for their effects on pens, I have modern pens in which Noodler's works fine; I have modern pens in which Noodler's (and Private Reserve) have required too much maintenance; and I have no need to put such an ink in a vintage pen. It's all fun, and I'm happy to have so many different inks to chose from.

 

Michael

 

Edited to fix typo.

Edited June 11, 2008 by dmmcf

[Splicer]

There's no one right answer. I've had occasion to be frustrated by the "damned if you do/damned if you don't" tradeoffs with pens and inks generally and fountain pens and fountain pen inks specifically.

 

"The fountain pen is superior" I heard in my teens. So I began incorporating fountain pens into my life. Great writing experience, they make good sketchers, great! In my mid-thirties, I open up the lightproof boxes containing my old artwork. You can tell that I used different pens in the same drawing, because there are my rapidograph and dip pen lines, black as my soul before my first cup of coffee. And there are the lines that went down with a fountain pen, looking a grayish shade of periwinkle.

 

I go to my gurus, the masters of fountain pens with this saddening news and am chastised for my naïvete, "you obvious newb! what an idiot you must be! Fountain pens are superior in every way, and they are timeless! Why, the pen I have right here is a hundred and thirty years old and still writes better than anything else on the planet! But you can't expect the inks to last more than a few weeks. Silly!"

 

Someone on the other side of the room, one of the shadier, seedier gurus who everyone else thnks might be a bit cracked says, "psst! hey kid, check this out! Noodlers makes fountain pen inks that are durable. But you didn't hear it from me. Hey, got a few bucks that I can borrow til Tuesday?"

 

So I put some Noodlers in my pen. Instantly everyone in the room gasps in horror (and I didn't even know there was anyone in my room. Who are you guys?) The impassioned, pained cry goes up, "Don't you care about your pens? Don't you know that you're destroying them?"

 

Then more voices: "No! they're totally safe! I drink a gallon of Noodler's every day and nothing bad has happened to me!"

 

And more voices: "well, I like 'em but I clean my pens out more often when I use 'em"

 

And still more voices, "do what you like, but don't come crying to me when your feed cracks in two and you've irreversibly stained all your pens, even the ones you didn't put Noodler's into."

 

*sigh* there's only one lesson to be learned here: Don't ever listen to anyone else. Everyone is full of you-know-what. You don't need a good reason to use an ink, and you don't need a good reason not to use an ink. I want to own one of every Rotring pen ever made and I refuse to ever own a Shaeffer of any vintage. Rational? Not even a little.

 

The easy choices in life are between right and wrong. The hard ones are between right and right. Maybe you love the color of your ink more than anything else. Maybe you want your writing to last forever. Maybe you love a particular pen so much that you won't risk putting anything but washable ink into it. Maybe you love ALL your pens so much that you don't risk putting any ink into any of them, and admire them sitting on the shelf while you write with a biro. It takes all kinds, and each of these examples, exaggerated slightly for comic effect, is the right choice for a given pen user.

Edited June 11, 2008 by Splicer

[lak611]

I'm thinking fireproof might be nice to have.

 

I've only recently begun writing things I think I might want to read years from now in their original, longhand form. I do have research notes going back twenty-some years, but they're virtually all in pencil (and, alas, on cheap paper which is showing its age). I probably don't need bulletproofness from day to day, but over decades of storage I think the odds are good that something will happen to any given journal or notebook. For that reason, I'm happy to have inks like Noodler's available.

 

As for their effects on pens, I have modern pens in which Noodler's works fine; I have modern pens in which Noodler's (and Private Reserve) have required too much maintenance; and I have no need to put such an ink in a vintage pen. It's all fun, and I'm happy to have so many different inks to chose from.

 

Michael

 

Edited to fix typo.

Most of my pens are modern. I have two Parker 51s and a Wahl-Eversharp Skyliner, but all my other pens are circa 1995 or newer.

 

BTW, wouldn't you need fireproof paper as well as fireproof ink?

 

[Melnicki]

quick! mods, freeze this thread! Splicer posted the pinnacle! It can't (and shouldn't) be topped! Everyone sh.... before you post, go back and re-read Splicer's post.

 

Can you post alternate versions of this very same message in the FPN LE pen thread, the Squeteague thread, the "shake your noodler's" thread, and every other contentious thread where people overlook things like IMHO and YMMV?

 

Thank you Splicer, case closed, and I even laughed.

[ethernautrix]

I just like being prepared for contingencies.

 

Also... I like how Noodler's Old Manhattan Black gets laid down from various pens. (But not all.)

 

Also... I like Radiohead's song "Bulletproof." I wish I was bulletproof.

 

 

Heh.

[ethernautrix]

I just read Splicer's post, Melnicki... and this might sound like a contradiction to my desiring to be prepared for contingencies... nothing lasts forever. At least... I won't. So... you know... if it (the ink, what I've done with it) lasts long enough... I'm good with that. (Smiley face.)

[Tricia]

Go, Splicer!

 

I'm convinced that the ink-pen-paper combination (I wrote then deleted 'gestalt' ) is a complex one. I have pens that write beautifully on one kind of paper and constantly hiccup (or hiccough, if you're a purist) on another kind of paper. Same ink, same ambient temperature, same humidity, but change one factor and the end results change, too.

 

And I'll add my own Parker "51" story: I've had a black vac, M nib, filled with Noodler's - either black or blue-black - for a number of years and it's still performing beautifully. No skips, no clogging. It's one of the mainstays on my desk and has pride of place on my little silk pen pillow. (But it is an M nib, so perhaps that is part of the equation for success, I don't know, but I do love writing with that pen.)

 

I keep a few favored pens filled with either a waterproof or water resistent pen since I've been known to spill a stray cup of tea now and again, but more often have to deal with condensation dripping where I didn't anticipate. As long as I can read what I wrote, I'm happy. Bulletproof is nice, but I don't really need it.

Edited June 11, 2008 by Tricia

[HDoug]

I'm thinking fireproof might be nice to have.

 

I use waterproof inks so my letters remain legible through the recipient's flood of tears. But now that you mention it, I think your suggestion would cover the more common reaction.

 

Doug

 

[kirianth]

I'm thinking fireproof might be nice to have.

 

Curses, you beat me to the fireproof comment. Wouldn't that be funny, you could pull little cursive strands of writing out of the ashes, like frosting letters.

 

I work in a biochemistry lab and thus wash my hands a lot, and I hate waiting for them to dry before touching anything I've written with a FP.

Twenty years ago, I spilled my organic chemistry experiment all over my lab journal. The Parker Quink I had written with survived.

Wow! That's cool! And quink is "washable"!!

 

But perhaps there wasn't a lot of water in the experiment? I have a squirt bottle of 70% ethanol on my bench, and occasionally I squirt my FP water-test comparisons with it before the water. Some things move a lot less than with water, surprisingly. That's strange because Ethanol is a good solvent. But the results speak for themselves. Yep, I just verified this right now.

 

Yeah, I didn't quite believe it either, but they use some pretty water-soluble-only dyes in FP ink. Washable Quink made it through all manner of organic solvents (including a bunch of alcohols), but disappears with a nice misting of water. Figures.

 

As for my waterproof preference... I live in Seattle. Everything can get accidentally wet.

[Juan in Andalucia]

Next will be Moses-proof.

 

I also can't understand the need to keep my notes eternal.

 

Juan

[KG4KAH]

All,

 

Splicer said it very well. None the less, I want (but do not need to) add:

 

I have used Noodler's Legal Lapis in a vintage Esterbrook for 8 months now, and have had no problems whatsoever. I think I cleaned it out once, but I can't remember. I used Noodler's Polar Black exclusively last year when out in the 100+ heat, humidity, occasional rain storm, etc of certifiying Backflow Preventers on irrigation systems (sprinklers.) That was often wet work, and I came home soaked many days. Beyond that, I am a slob, and manage to spill coffee, tea, water, or anything else that happens to be messy on my journal, envelopes ready for mailing, and so forth. I imagine there may be a person like me working at the Post Office. Further, Noodler's inks are not that expensive, compared to some other inks widely touted on this board.

 

That's all just my opinion, of course, based on my experience. YMMV.

 

Regards,

 

Wade

[Possum Hill]

I'm thinking fireproof might be nice to have.

Bulletproof ink would survive the water used to extinguish a fire.

 

Resistance to sweat and rain is what I find useful about bulletproof inks.