Writing Japanese.....

[scratchy]

Hi everyone

I was just wondering what kind of nib is best for writing Japanese characters (Hiragana, Katakana, and Kanji). I've got a Sailor Sapporo F-nib which seems alright, but perhaps I should be using something with more flex?

Any suggestions welcome...

[Dr.Grace]

I've recently done an extensive comparison of different pens for writing Chinese characters (similar to Kanji). What I find the best are

 

1. Zebra super fine brush pen (available here). Very easy to get an amazing range of line thickness, and feels just like a brush. Cheap! Disadvantage: not refillable, and only comes in black.

 

2. Richard Binder's "Condor" nib for Pelikan pen bodies. Takes some practice, but it works, and it's fun to use. Fairly expensive. A Sailor pen with a "Concord" nib would give similar results, I guess, but would be even more expensive.

 

3. Sailor "special script" pen (available from ebay seller greenman508). Surprisingly good for the price. Actually can make better strokes than the Condor nib in some cases.

 

I've tried numerous other brush pens and find them too soft, too big, and/or too hard to control.

 

Also, I've tried the Sailor Zoom nib, and although it's very smooth, I was unable to get it to produce enough line variation within a single stroke to achieve the appearance of brush strokes.

 

Finally, I've tried a flex nib, and although I imagine you could learn to use one for Asian characters, I didn't have much success.

 

 

 

Don

Edited May 13, 2008 by Dr.Grace

[Taki]

I think regular nib is fine, at least until one learns basic letter shapes.

 

There are two kinds of calligraphies in Japan; the traditional one done with brush, and the "hard-brush" calligraphy (硬筆 kouhitsu) done with ballpoints, pencil, pens, etc. I guess you could use a flexible nibs in kouhitsu, but too much flexibility might make it more difficult to write.

 

Pilot sells "hard-brush" calligraphy pens but I don't think these pens have flexible nibs.

 

An example of "hard-brush" calligraphy - click on the blue oblong shapes on the right-hand side of the page. These are the winners of the national grade school kouhitsu contest. I think these are done with either regular pencil, may be fountain or dip pens, but probably not flexible ones. Boy, that second grader (the top sample) has much better handwriting than I do :embarrassed_smile:

 

http://kouhitsu.net/top/kouhitsu_d.php?scc...si&s_code=1

Edited May 13, 2008 by Taki

[Dr.Grace]

I'm sure you're right, Taki, that an ordinary fine nib is suitable for beginners. However, I learned Chinese calligraphy originally with a brush, so for me writing with an ordinary nib is just not enjoyable enough.

[Taki]

I'm sure you're right, Taki, that an ordinary fine nib is suitable for beginners. However, I learned Chinese calligraphy originally with a brush, so for me writing with an ordinary nib is just not enjoyable enough.

I understand that, your Chinese calligraphy is wonderful Sadly I did not learn handwriting using brush, like the majority of the Japanese people who were born after WWII. So I feel like I don't have a good control of brush and I can't imagine writing my journal with it, though I wish I could. My mom sent me calligraphy lessons (both regular brush and "hard brush") when I was a child but I didn't practice enough and I did not go anywhere, just like my piano lessons I also think it has a lot to do with hand-eye coordination and artistic ability, too (I don't have either )

 

Edit to add:

 

scratchy, what kind of textbook/examples are you using to learn Japanese writing? If you want to learn brush or brush-like pen writing, you should get a textbook written with brush so that you can learn proper strokes, shapes, etc. as they are a bit different from when written with other writing instruments.

Edited May 13, 2008 by Taki

[Renzhe]

Ooh that high schooler's got some curves...

...in his writing, of course. I'm totally straight.

 

I've never heard of hard-brush calligraphy but I think that's what scratchy's referring to. I suspect that those "hard brushes" on Pilot's site are just regular fountain pens. (Also, those hard brushes look like you're supposed to hold them like Western pens.) Therefore I conclude that any hard-tipped writing instrument (including Sailor Sapporo fine nibs) are suitable for hard-brush calligraphy.

 

 

[Taki]

Ooh that high schooler's got some curves...

...in his writing, of course. I'm totally straight.

 

I've never heard of hard-brush calligraphy but I think that's what scratchy's referring to. I suspect that those "hard brushes" on Pilot's site are just regular fountain pens. (Also, those hard brushes look like you're supposed to hold them like Western pens.) Therefore I conclude that any hard-tipped writing instrument (including Sailor Sapporo fine nibs) are suitable for hard-brush calligraphy.

I just checked the rules for the contest, and they use different writing instruments depending on their age. The top three examples (elementary and junior high students) were done with pencils. I suspect the bottom three were done by brush pens (the kind with soft plastic tips), judging from the writing. The rule states for students in high school and older "Kouhitsu writing instruments other than pencils" but did not really specify. Brush pens were not allowed in kouhitsu class when I was a kid. Things must have changed

Edited May 13, 2008 by Taki

[Ernst Bitterman]

I'm far from good at the Japanese characters, so my recommendation is to be taken very lightly-- Hero's 285 does a reasonable job and can be had for very tiny cost from isellpens.com. It's something like the Condor/Zoom, but with a simple bend rather than a curve.

[Dillo]

Hmm...My mom can do Chinese calligraphy with the brush. I have done a little of that, but I never got serious with it (I might still be able to do it though). Normally though, if I'm writing Japanese (or Chinese--but I don't write Chinese very often) I use a fine point Japanese pen (often with a somewhat stiff nib). I don't usually write very large, so I suppose it makes sense to have a fine point.

 

Dillon

[gyasko]

Hi everyone

I was just wondering what kind of nib is best for writing Japanese characters (Hiragana, Katakana, and Kanji). I've got a Sailor Sapporo F-nib which seems alright, but perhaps I should be using something with more flex?

Any suggestions welcome...

 

From a Japanese teachers point of view, i'd say stick with plain-Jane nibs. You want to be thinking about on-yomi and kun-yomi and stroke order and not whether to flex or not.

[scratchy]

An update.....

 

I've almost learned the 46 basic Hiragana and I've been using my Sailor Professional Gear B nib and Sailor Sapporo F nib and they seem okay! I'll see how they go for the Katakana and Kanji in a few weeks time when I move on to them.

 

Thanks for everyones advice (and Don I'm looking to get a couple of the Zebra superfine at some stage - thanks for the advice!)

 

scratchy

[Neill78]

Hi everyone

I was just wondering what kind of nib is best for writing Japanese characters (Hiragana, Katakana, and Kanji). I've got a Sailor Sapporo F-nib which seems alright, but perhaps I should be using something with more flex?

Any suggestions welcome...

 

I'm sure Taki-san will disagree with me here (I think he disagreed with me before on this too), but I bought a 1.1 italic nib for my Lamy Safari and it makes writing in Japanese a real joy. And I HATE writing in Japanese! My (Japanese) wife also loves it, and borrows it sometimes to write letters to her friends and family back home. I teach Japanese at university and I use it on a digital overhead projector to teach the students kanji, because it looks very similar to the way characters are printed in the textbook. Good line variation between verticals and horizontals (and you can twist the pen a bit to make it more brush-like), great ink flow that's not too wet, and it's VERY smooth to write with.

 

If you've already got a Lamy you can just swap nibs, so it won't cost a lot of money to try.

 

Alternately Sailor sells a special fountain pen with a very strange angled nib on it that lets you adjust stroke widths. I bought one a couple weeks ago when I was in Japan but I haven't tried it yet. It was about $10. I think it was made for people who know how to write with a brush already (definitely not me!) but I bought it because it was something I would never find here in Canada. It's in a box somewhere waiting to be put away, but if you want the model name/number I will certainly take a look for it.

 

Neill

[Neill78]

From a Japanese teachers point of view, i'd say stick with plain-Jane nibs. You want to be thinking about on-yomi and kun-yomi and stroke order and not whether to flex or not.

 

I totally agree with this. A flexy nib with varying ink flow is NOT conducive to learning characters. Too much to think about, and without an instructor's guiding hand you might get into the habit of writing in a way that looks good to YOU like, but is likely not aesthetically pleasing to a native reader.

 

Neill

[Renzhe]

Apparently this is an example of good kana handwriting with a hard brush. High pressure at thick parts, low pressure at thin parts. Native readers please confirm.

http://i31.tinypic.com/2lxyxvk.png

Edited June 4, 2008 by Renzhe

[Dr.Grace]

Well, my experience is with Chinese, not Japanese, characters, but that writing looks wonderful. I love the spatial balance of the characters and the beauty of the individual strokes. Do you know what pen and nib were used?

[Taki]

Neill78, I still think a round nib is easier for someone who just stareted learning Japanese. For people who can already write, Italic can be fun.

 

Sailor pen you mentioned is probably Sailor Fude-de-mannen (pun - brush/fountain pen and Osaka accent). They are the same as Sailor Special Script pen Dr. Grace mentioned earlier in the thread.

 

Looks like there are a few of us Japanese teachers on FPN I don't teach any more but I have a degree in teaching Japanese as a second language, and have a teaching certificate for high school Japanese

Edited June 4, 2008 by Taki

[Dr.Grace]

Hi everyone

I was just wondering what kind of nib is best for writing Japanese characters (Hiragana, Katakana, and Kanji). I've got a Sailor Sapporo F-nib which seems alright, but perhaps I should be using something with more flex?

Any suggestions welcome...

 

I'm sure Taki-san will disagree with me here (I think he disagreed with me before on this too), but I bought a 1.1 italic nib for my Lamy Safari and it makes writing in Japanese a real joy. And I HATE writing in Japanese! My (Japanese) wife also loves it, and borrows it sometimes to write letters to her friends and family back home. I teach Japanese at university and I use it on a digital overhead projector to teach the students kanji, because it looks very similar to the way characters are printed in the textbook. Good line variation between verticals and horizontals (and you can twist the pen a bit to make it more brush-like), great ink flow that's not too wet, and it's VERY smooth to write with.

 

If you've already got a Lamy you can just swap nibs, so it won't cost a lot of money to try.

 

Alternately Sailor sells a special fountain pen with a very strange angled nib on it that lets you adjust stroke widths. I bought one a couple weeks ago when I was in Japan but I haven't tried it yet. It was about $10. I think it was made for people who know how to write with a brush already (definitely not me!) but I bought it because it was something I would never find here in Canada. It's in a box somewhere waiting to be put away, but if you want the model name/number I will certainly take a look for it.

 

Neill

 

I've tried a western italic nib with Chinese characters, and agree that it was usable and gave a result that resembles some of the printing typefaces. However, the result is not at all like brush-strokes.

 

The Sailor pen you bought is called the "Special script", somtimes just referred to as the "script". I mentioned it in post #2 above. It's available in the U.S. for around $40, so you got a good deal in Japan. I really like it!

[Taki]

Renzhe, I don't have an access to a full computer and cannot see your image very well, but it looks so perfect and looks like a font!! But that kind of writing is used for Japanese textbooks for children.

[Taki]

An update.....

 

I've almost learned the 46 basic Hiragana and I've been using my Sailor Professional Gear B nib and Sailor Sapporo F nib and they seem okay! I'll see how they go for the Katakana and Kanji in a few weeks time when I move on to them.

 

Thanks for everyones advice (and Don I'm looking to get a couple of the Zebra superfine at some stage - thanks for the advice!)

 

scratchy

 

Thanks for the update Good luck on your learning

Edited June 5, 2008 by Taki

[Renzhe]

Do you know what pen and nib were used?

No idea; sorry.

 

Actually I think its one of those Japanese textbook typefaces. I can't say anything about the kana, but I remember that their Kanji were really ugly...I mean check out that 平!

(Disclaimer: I'm a Chinese-American teenager. I been learning a lot of Kanji since I was little. I learned hiragana the long way, which is to write the Kanji it comes from, write it faster, write it faster, be more sloppy, be more lazy, and it becomes hiragana.)

Edited June 6, 2008 by Renzhe