Any FPs with double-sided nibs?

[sztainbok]

Waterman patented the double-sided nib (called a duo-point or ball point) in 1915, giving it the trade name Duo-Tip. The vintage-style flex nibs I make are duo-points in the Waterman style, as illustrated here:

 

http://www.richardspens.com/images/site/zoomed/flex_angle.jpg

 

Note the angled grinds on the top edges near the tip, visible in the angled view, and the slight "droop" of the tip, visible in the side view. These features were characteristic of the Waterman Duo-Tip, and I've found that my flex nibs work best when I duplicate them.

 

The Waterman Duo-Point nib is likely the first one to be desinged for the purpose being used on both sides of the nib.

Later on Waterman produced the Yellow nib which had the same feature.

Here is a picture of both side by side showing the bevelled slit near the tip that Richard referres to. I find the Duo-Point nib with more flex when used with the "right side up" than the yellow nib.

[Honeybadgers]

 

 

Does polishing the face change the flow? In most pens it's not just the reverse writing is scratchy but has a lack of flow. Maybe it depends on how parallel the inside of the slit is? I guess you will work that out in your stacked nib experiments.

 

Most nibs don't suffer a lack of flow. I'd say only about 10% are so dry that they can't reverse write, and those are the nibs that were dry to start with. Usually it's a problem of scratchy, not dry. Even the "dry" reverse writers are usually just being so scratchy they don't get good contact and flow.

 

Flex nibs tend to be worse at it since they usually have the tines touch. Nibs with a slightly open slit are better.

[Driften]

Thanks, it does seem from my experience the smoother reverse writes do write wetter then the scratchy ones. Just didn't connect the two.

[minddance]

The (inverted) canyon syndrome (a form of misalignment) can cause reverse writing to very dry or totally no flow. And of course, many manufacturers do not bother to smooth the reverse side of the nib.

 

I find some of my Pelikans (m800m), Sailor (nib dated 2018 and not earlier) able to reverse write. I recently acquired a very well finished Sailor 14k mf and 21mf that can reverse write, very much to my surprise. They also write alot smoother than previous Sailors nib dated between 2010 to 2017 that I acquired.

 

Is there a change in Sailor's nib finishing?

[Honeybadgers]

Nope. The nibs on those pens are not deliberately polished on the reverse. Whether or not yours is great out of the box is chance.

[A Smug Dill]

My experience with the Sailor Zoom nib is that to vary the stroke width, I need to use it in a very particular angle that I found by trial and error and rotate the pen slightly as I write. It does the job, but it is very difficult and slow to write with it.

Only if one has a preconceived idea and a narrow definition of "vary the stroke width". I just received my first Zoom-nibbed pen, and as advertised the primary method of varying the stroke width by design is by changing the incident angle. For most users (including me), that would mean each pen stroke is largely 'monoline', but consecutive strokes can have different thicknesses, although varying the pressure along a single pen stroke can still vary the line thickness somewhat. That is slightly easier to do to good effect with kana/kanji/hanzi, but it can also be done in the same fashion when writing a single uppercase letter of the English alphabet in a somewhat flamboyant manner.

 

And, yes, I did find a nib orientation that offers pleasing line variation in cursive English writing, but that is certainly not the limited scope when it comes to varying the stroke width in my book.

 

Right the Zoom feature does not seem to be very good for western writing,

I didn't find it any worse than any other nib I have for writing in English.

 

Sailor markets the pen for the extra size by flipping it over, which is the feature the OP talked about in other pens all those years ago.

Nope. The nibs on those pens are not deliberately polished on the reverse. Whether or not yours is great out of the box is chance.

I bought mine – specifically, their store exclusive Proske gold-trimmed demonstrator variant of the Sailor 1911 – from Nagasawa Stationery Center. They advertise on the product page on Rakuten Global Market that the nib on each pen sold is inspected in-house by technicians prior to it being sent out, and so I put in the notes on the order that it is important to me to be able to write consistently with the nib in upside-down position. It writes smoothly enough, but the line is a bit too broad for my liking when the nib is upside down.

Edited October 2, 2018 by A Smug Dill

[Driften]

 

I didn't find it any worse than any other nib I have for writing in English.

 

 

The nib works great for what ever angle a person normally likes to write with, but if someone wanted to use the zoom feature, drastically changing the angle to change the line, it doesn't really work for English cursive writing.

[A Smug Dill]

it doesn't really work for English cursive writing.

It doesn't 'work' for Chinese writing either any better than a 'normal' Sailor nib. I guess what I was saying is that '(cursive) Western writing' does not imply or require significant line variation in the output, any more than the left sweep ('pie') stroke need to end in a sharp point in Chinese writing. Specific hands in calligraphy is a different matter.

 

 

<EDIT>

Some water got inside the transparent section when I put the assembly nib, feed and all into my ultrasonic cleaning tank for the initial 'flushing' after unboxing, and I couldn't get it back out. (You could see some of the condensation in the corner of the photo at the top of this post.)

 

Not feeling all that much love for this new pen, I fiddled with it roughly, including pulling out the nib and feed, and finally worked out how to fully disassemble the section, which allowed me to clean inside it. Once reassembled, I found the pen to now be writing more to my liking:

 

 

The nib now seems to yield a finer line than before when writing with it oriented upside-down. I think it's because ink flow is now drier than before.

Edited October 2, 2018 by A Smug Dill

[minddance]

A Sailor Medium nib works (using different faces of the nib, some rolling of the pen) or a Sailor 21k fine work better (some softness and nib grind) for Chinese characters.

[thx1138]

My original Cross century with 18k broad nib writes a nice wet broad line right side up and a nice wet medium line upside down. Both a very smooth.

[A Smug Dill]

... a Sailor 21k fine work better (some softness and nib grind) for Chinese characters.

[PAKMAN]

Recently got my hands on my first Parker 180, xf nib on one side, medium nib on the other side each has their own feed. Cool!

[Driften]

Recently got my hands on my first Parker 180, xf nib on one side, medium nib on the other side each has their own feed. Cool!

 

 

That is cool! I have never seen a pen with two feeds. Maybe you can post a pic?

[sztainbok]

 

 

That is cool! I have never seen a pen with two feeds. Maybe you can post a pic?

Hi Driften,

Here's a picture of a Sheaffer Stylist with a double sided nib and one feed on each side. It is the predecesor to the Parker 180. The Parker 180 is more refined, a nicer looking and better quality pen.

Over-under feeds were common on early 20th. century pens. I have an Onoto pen (not double sided) with an over-under feed.

Greetings,

Victor.

[Driften]

Hi Driften,

Here's a picture of a Sheaffer Stylist with a double sided nib and one feed on each side. It is the predecesor to the Parker 180. The Parker 180 is more refined, a nicer looking and better quality pen.

Over-under feeds were common on early 20th. century pens. I have an Onoto pen (not double sided) with an over-under feed.

Greetings,

Victor.

Doc1_001.jpg

 

 

Thanks for the picture. It looks more like a strange hooded nib.

[Honeybadgers]

Only if one has a preconceived idea and a narrow definition of "vary the stroke width". I just received my first Zoom-nibbed pen, and as advertised the primary method of varying the stroke width by design is by changing the incident angle. For most users (including me), that would mean each pen stroke is largely 'monoline', but consecutive strokes can have different thicknesses, although varying the pressure along a single pen stroke can still vary the line thickness somewhat. That is slightly easier to do to good effect with kana/kanji/hanzi, but it can also be done in the same fashion when writing a single uppercase letter of the English alphabet in a somewhat flamboyant manner.

 

And, yes, I did find a nib orientation that offers pleasing line variation in cursive English writing, but that is certainly not the limited scope when it comes to varying the stroke width in my book.

 

I didn't find it any worse than any other nib I have for writing in English.

 

 

I bought mine – specifically, their store exclusive Proske gold-trimmed demonstrator variant of the Sailor 1911 – from Nagasawa Stationery Center. They advertise on the product page on Rakuten Global Market that the nib on each pen sold is inspected in-house by technicians prior to it being sent out, and so I put in the notes on the order that it is important to me to be able to write consistently with the nib in upside-down position. It writes smoothly enough, but the line is a bit too broad for my liking when the nib is upside down.

 

My zoom is a bit toothy but is a satisfactory reverse writer as well.

 

Why on earth would you buy a zoom nib they're so freaking broad at almost any angle.

 

I'd take "personally inspected" with a grain of salt. Lamy 2000 nibs are personally inspected too but the F and EF can have dramatic differences between two nibs.

[inkstainedruth]

I remember trying some sort of Sailor pen a few years ago at DCSS. I don't remember if it was a zoom nib or one of the other specialized nibs. My husband liked it because when used upside down it made a line fine enough for his tastes.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[A Smug Dill]

Why on earth would you buy a zoom nib they're so freaking broad at almost any angle.

I'm a sucker for interesting technical and/or functional design (with emphasis to delineate it from considerations of style or material, etc.), so I'm keen to try different types of nib such as soft, flex, italic, stub, Fude, Zoom, Concorde, etc. as long as they're affordable. Yes, Sailor's Zoom nibs are too broad for my liking for normal use, but I don't think that is a trait of that design or category of nib, just as 'italic' or 'broad-edged' does not imply the edge has to be wider than 1.0mm.

 

Luckily for me, I can still produce legible Chinese writing in a matrix of 5mm squares with my Zoom nib, as you can see in the writing example I posted above.

 

I wouldn't mind trying a classic Naginata Togi nib, and almost bought one in the last few months, but the prices for them are so high now (even for old stock) that I'm not prepared to throw A$350 on a Sailor 1911 pen with a boring classic black cigar design, especially after reading many reviews to say that the NMF writes far broader than typical Japanese MF nibs. Furthermore, it seems both Togi nibs and architect nibs are designed to produce writing that does not fit with my personal view of the kaishu aesthetic.

[coolguy684]

Vintage Montblanc K (kugel) nibs coudl write upaude down very nicely.

[sztainbok]

We have been looking for double sided nibs... How about a nib that can write on any position or side? Here is a picture of a Sailor Trident. This pen can write in any position. The nib has three tines and three collectors! It is however stiff and provides only one stroke width, not what you are looking for from a double sided nib. Useful to make multiple carbon copies...