Baystate Blue Ruined My Yellow Lamy

[CAA]

The idea here is to be aware of what you are working with, and make hopefully informed decisions about what you want to do.

 

I couldn't agree more, but I wonder if it is the responsibility of FPN and its members to inform potential users or the manufacturer.

 

For the record, I was/am/will continue to be a fan of Noodlers. I have half-a-dozen different colors, including BSB that arrived yesterday, and Noodlers will continue to be my first choice.

[Viseguy]

I keep seeing the burning cup of coffee analogy, but the analogy is flawed. Any reasonable person should expect a hot cup of coffee to burn; the same cannot be said of ink. In fact, I find all of the "ink stains, duh" talk slightly disingenuous. Spill a hot cup of coffee on anyone and it will burn, yet I've NEVER had an ink stain any of my pens. It is not unreasonable to expect an ink not to stain a pen, if you'll forgive the triple negative.

From the "common sense" perspective, the question I have is: when (ink generally/BSB specifically) used in its intended way, is it a reasonable expectation to believe/expect that the ink will stain (and perhaps permanently) a common pen?

Excellent points. It may not be unreasonable to expect that an ink will not stain a pen, and it certainly would be unusual, if not unreasonable, to expect that an ink will stain a pen, but it is unreasonable, in my view, to ignore the risk of staining -- or to suppose that the burden of that risk falls on the maker of the ink and not the person who dips his pen into it. That you've had good luck with your pens doesn't show that the risk isn't there. That the risk is lower with some ink-pen combinations, and higher with others, is not an argument for shifting the burden to the maker -- although I will grant that, in the abstract, when the probability of staining with a particular ink rises above the median probability of staining for all inks, the notion of a warning becomes more plausible. The problem is, the probability of staining what? Must the manufacturer test the ink with all possible pen materials and colors before bringing it to market? How specific does the warning have to be? "May stain pen brands X, Y, and Z"? And if the required warning is simply a generalized "May stain your pen", how much useful information does that add to the common-sense caution that any person -- I would say any reasonable person -- normally brings to bear on the decision whether to take the plunge? Perhaps the warning should be, "May not stain your pen"!

 

That said, I do take your points. This is a matter about which reasonable people may differ. But I'm glad that cellulophile at least seems to agree with me about the coffee cups!

[girlieg33k]

I will grant that, in the abstract, when the probability of staining with a particular ink rises above the median probability of staining for all inks, the notion of a warning becomes more plausible. The problem is, the probability of staining what? Must the manufacturer test the ink with all possible pen materials and colors before bringing it to market?

Absolutely not, and using an extreme example will not bring that point home either. There is a nice middle-ground between a 3-page leaflet and no warning. Since you're a lawyer and so am I, we both know this point could be argued ad nauseum, and the real point would get lost. So let's go back to common sense -- in other words, how much would it have cost to exercise a little common sense here? A 3-page leaflet would be downright useless because most consumers are not going to read it anyway. You know that, I know that, and so did Noodler's lawyers. But what is the point of including a ph-level on the bottle if most people wouldn't even know what it means? Someone actually took the time to decide that including the ph-level was a good idea though. Interesting... So how difficult would it have been to print: "Vintage Ink: Prone to Stain Pens" on the label? What common sense told someone this would be a bad idea?

 

And you are absolutely right about people taking responsibility. That's why the concepts of assumption of the risk and comparative negligence exist. So yes, people should take responsibility, but this does not negate the responsibility of manufacturers, especially when fostering goodwill. So when a customer says they like your product and they bring a problem to the table, it'd be nice to get a response that limited the scope to the problem and not muddy the waters with the company's financials.

 

Noodler's is known for its labels. Since this thread has undoubtedly brought press and additional notoriety to Noodler's, it would be pure marketing genius to use SamCapote's photos on the Baystate Blue label. People would just eat that up and rightly so... People love good sob stories and they also underdogs.

Edited February 3, 2008 by girlieg33k

[RsqVet]

 

I believe that Lamy uses ABS plastic in the Safari..... I don't know why I know this, I think it came up sometime before regarding the construction of the Safari. ABS is used in few other pens I know of and no vintage pens. If this is the case maybe Nathan should warn us as to the types of plastic BSB stains? But of course then we will hear folks quip that they don't know what type of plastic their pen is made of.

 

In all seriousness the second set of pictures of the section owned by the OP the original staining pattern looks nearly resolved though there are new stains. I suspect with aggressive treatment the stains might resolve though this is obviously beyond what one would want to do with a pen on a regular basis. Frankly the stains may be an unhappy combination of the materials or just how they are processes. I can make stainless steel rust and stain very easily if it's not processed and finished right, polish it to a high luster then passivate it in acid and the same material will resist stains and rust quite well. I'm not enough of a plastics guy to comment on ABS but I've seen this with other materials including polyproelene.

 

I'd also like to add moral support to Nathan, I do think that Noodler's takes it on the chin a fair bit around here with folks who for one reason or another are not satisfied. Frankly what other ink is banned by one seller / repairer of pens for warranty service? If we wanted to make a list of inks that have been a problem we would likely soon have every ink from every maker on that list since I'm sure each one has behaved badly in a pen or two for one reason or another. Yet Noodlers does seem to be the one that gets the most thumbs down, or I did't like 2 inks so I'm over them sorts of posts here. Having read through this forum at length prior to trying Noodlers I was almost scared to, for there seem to be a fair number of folks who report problems or dissatisfaction. Yet I have witnessed none of these things with the inks I have tried. In fact what I have here behaves well within the range of "normal" ink to me.

 

Furthermore I have tried to find sediment in the ink, and can find none. I went to the effort to spin a sample (polar blue) in a centerfuge for an hour and still not sediment was visible even under magnification. I have tired the inks on a variety of paper and notice no more feathering than is the norm for a true liquid ink... certainly not the bad or out of the norm as some posts here would suggest.

 

So I'm left wondering, am I using the same product? Or is there a tendency here to lover or hate an anticipated new product or purchase?

 

[StyloBug33]

I just read this post today, and don't use Noodler's ink, but I had a pen stain like this a few years ago with a "safe" ink. I don't remember which ink, exactly, but it wasn't anything unusual. I had just gotten a True Writer pen from Levenger in the light pink color. I dipped the nib in the ink and filled it up. In that instant, the outside of the pen was stained, just like the yellow Lamy. The ink just soaked right into the section. There was no cleaning it off. The color had bonded with the plastic.

 

However, in my case, I assumed the problem was with the plastic of the pen. Levenger agreed and sent me a new one. I never had another problem, even with the same ink.

 

Is it possible the yellow plastic was a bad batch of plastic? And the problem is not with the ink at all? I don't know Nathan, but I would assume he knows how to make ink that won't stain a normal pen.

[captnemo]

This is a very interesting discussion so I might as well muddy the waters some more. It's my experience that most, if not all, red dyes stain. Waterman red will stain certain plastics as will the red component of Noodlers Red Black. It seems that we all just "know" that all red inks or inks that contain red dyes are a potential danger and no warnings are printed on bottles containing red ink.

[OldGriz]

Someone further up the line stated "I just know that if that Lamy were one of my celluloids, I'd be very p'd off, to put it mildly."

I hope that person never puts purple or red ink in any of those celluloids, especially pens like a Vacumatic...

I don't care if the ink is Waterman, Diamine, PR or Noodlers.. those colors will stain the pen....

 

On another note, this thread was pulled by the moderators for starting to get nasty. It was returned after some of the nastiness was obviously taken care of.

I see some nastiness returning.... now that is only my opinion...

I think that we can all discuss the relative merits of an ink without becoming nasty or accusing the manufacturer of not caring or warning us about the ink..

Inks are made from dyes... dyes are used for staining... ink works by staining the paper you are writing on....

Not all dyes are as user friendly as others or as we would like... but some are necessary if a desired color, brightness, etc. is required in an ink...

 

I have had my say....

[1937w]

I'm with Viseguy. Does an adult really have to be told that ink stains? Were I to read all of the instructions on my extension ladder, I'd have to allow an extra day for a minor home repair.........moreover, lost in all of the likely unread moronic verbiage about not leaning a metal ladder against a live power line, or not to attempt to balance on the very top step after consuming a fifth of Jack Daniels, all the while having a heated quarrel with the wife......is the one useful instruction about ladder angle. Also, if there are technical terms in a product description that a user doesn't understand, the user has a responsibility to find out what they mean. Go to the Wikipedia or post a query on FPN. Must manufacturers now have several levels of instructions catering to all possible levels of ignorance?

[gylyf]

Someone further up the line stated "I just know that if that Lamy were one of my celluloids, I'd be very p'd off, to put it mildly."

I hope that person never puts purple or red ink in any of those celluloids, especially pens like a Vacumatic...

I don't care if the ink is Waterman, Diamine, PR or Noodlers.. those colors will stain the pen....

 

In point of fact, I don't use purple or red inks in any of my celluloid pens, because I know better. And now, if I used Noodlers inks, I would know better than to use Baystate Blue with my celluloid pens. But where it's reasonable, by virtue of their properties, to expect red or purple inks to stain, I was merely suggesting that it might not be as obvious that an ink like Baystate Blue would stain.

David

[captnemo]

Someone further up the line stated "I just know that if that Lamy were one of my celluloids, I'd be very p'd off, to put it mildly."

I hope that person never puts purple or red ink in any of those celluloids, especially pens like a Vacumatic...

I don't care if the ink is Waterman, Diamine, PR or Noodlers.. those colors will stain the pen....

 

In point of fact, I don't use purple or red inks in any of my celluloid pens, because I know better. And now, if I used Noodlers inks, I would know better than to use Baystate Blue with my celluloid pens. But where it's reasonable, by virtue of their properties, to expect red or purple inks to stain, I was merely suggesting that it might not be as obvious that an ink like Baystate Blue would stain.

David

 

Yes, it seems that this is the crux of the issue. We all "know" about the danger of red inks, and newcomers to FPs who don't know DO get burned sometimes, as evidenced by posts that come by from time to time on FPN. I guess we all sort of assume that blue inks won't stain pens.

 

So the question is should an ink that stains plastic or celluloid have a warning? That's why I brought up the red example above. Red inks stain but come with no warning. It's an interesting question with broader implications that just Baystate Blue.

[Deirdre]

I think David's point is a good one. Personally, I decided I'd get some solid-colored pens for the staining reasons. I prefer wild celluloid, but....

 

There's some virtue in matching pen/ink colors.

 

Even though I'm so not a black pen person, I realized that having a black pen was one way to avoid any possible staining when using Noodler's black. I'm not a black ink person, but after all the torture tests recently, I realized that I was better off with a FP for many of the tasks I'd been using a BP for. Thus, I now have a shiny black Omas 1930 for black ink, and an Aurora Ipsilon in black and silver.

[Jimmy James]

As I already noted -- bearing in mind that all ink stains, is it part of your "common sense" to see a pen (any pen) emerge from a bottle of ink irreparably stained like the Lamy Safari?

 

When the ink is a relatively new and untested ink, I'd have to say yes. I don't know what would happen if I dipped my pens in grape juice, but I'd feel as though I were assuming a risk of staining if I did it. If we were talking a bad batch of an ink with a track record, I'd feel differently. I think we all knew this was a brand new ink with properties unlike other Noodler's inks. Frankly, that's part of what kept me waiting for a couple of reviews (along with questions about whether I'd like the color, where I could get the best price, what else I'd buy with the ink, and the like).

 

If I bought some of that Camel ink from China or wherever in Asia it comes from, I'd go slowly and carefully with it. I just don't know that much about it. I'd argue it's the same with BSB.

 

I just bought a demonstrator. It's my most expensive pen. My first instinct was to post about what I felt my safest inks were and get some feedback on them prior to inking it up. I'd have done that before this BSB controversy came up.

 

 

I love that the Lamy Safari took a hit for our more prized pens, but we all seem to be missing the point that greencobra made. The point is, yes ink stains -- but it's all relative -- and when it's out of proportion to what we normally and reasonably expect, a head's up would have been nice. Or has Noodler's staining properties become a standard for its brand that we're all considered "on notice" that we are first to test it Noodler's inks first on part pens and low-end, no-name pens? Is that essentially what you're saying?

 

My position is that any new ink from anyone should be tested in that manner unless the person doing the filling is willing to live with staining the nicer pen we're talking about here. Perhaps you could argue for being a bit more bold if you are talking about a modern pen with a modern ink from the same manufacturer, but I'd still think it would be more prudent to proceed cautiously. I also don't think it's particularly reasonable to believe an ink manufacturer should have any burden to test and advise about reactions with the scores of different polymers and other materials out there.

 

I'm not bashing Noodler's.

 

Personally, I'd like to hope nobody is trying to bash Noodler's or anybody else. This is more "lesson learned" type of material if you ask me, no matter what the outcome is.

 

I think most here know that I've purchased my share, traded my share, and keep a few in my stable, and have lauded a few in my ink reviews. Yet, if a newly released Waterman ink did that to one my pens, I would wonder what the hell was going on.

 

I think that goes to reputation at least a little bit. Waterman is held out as a safe ink. I'd still proceed cautiously if they came out with a new mint green color or something like that, but I would be a bit surprised if my testing showed it to be a stainer.

 

Somebody else mentioned that they'd post about a surprising result and contact the manufacturer. I don't think that's wrong. I'm not suggesting that this is something other than a bit of a surprise. Instead, I'm suggesting that it shouldn't be that surprising of a surprise. It's not like a new batch of bulletproof black or Florida blue suddenly staining pens, which would be a bigger surprise than this is.

 

It's a $30 pen (now probably more valuable), but don't discard the warning it heeded. It gave you the warning you deserved so as not to put Baystate Blue in your most prized pen -- be it a $30 Lamy Safari or your brand spanking new Michael Perchin pen.

 

I absolutely appreciate the warning, and I'm glad I'm not the one who ended up being in the position to make it. I want to make that perfectly clear. It's not my intention to take this in the direction of hostility, but I am very interested in discussing the issues that are raised.

[Pengrump]

Some blue inks do stain. I remember getting a stain on a nice marbled pen from Namiki Blue several years back. When I asked how that could have happened, I was simply told Namiki Blue does that. No one suggested that Namiki ought to do anything about it or label the ink as staining. I still use Namiki Blue, but not in pens that will show a stain. I'll probably do the same if I get Noodler's Baystate Blue, which I hope will happen soon.

[Viseguy]

I will grant that, in the abstract, when the probability of staining with a particular ink rises above the median probability of staining for all inks, the notion of a warning becomes more plausible. The problem is, the probability of staining what? Must the manufacturer test the ink with all possible pen materials and colors before bringing it to market?

So how difficult would it have been to print: "Vintage Ink: Prone to Stain Pens" on the label? What common sense told someone this would be a bad idea?

Difficult? Not very. Good idea? Maybe -- even if no vintage ink ever carried such a warning. My argument goes not to what some ink makers may undertake to do voluntarily (because they perceive it to be in their commercial interest or even in the interest of their customers or the public). I'm talking about what ink makers might be required to do, or, to put it the other way around, whether an ink consumer has a legitimate complaint in the absence of a warning. It doesn't follow that because an action is unburdensome or beneficial, it should be required, or that its absence creates a wrong.

 

But enough. I have no desire to bring anyone to the point of nausea.

 

[tcheuchter]

Smart man and she's a smart girl!!!

 

When lawyers get nauseated, it is a foreboding sign!!! All I can add is thank you to the starter of this post. :clap1:

[RitaCarbon]

Good idea. Accept the Baystate Blue and plastic Yellow Lamy (to say nothing of the fake marble) the way they are and move on. You will feel much better. Believe me, I've been there...

[HDoug]

I guess we could make do with something like this disclaimer for Happy Fun Ball.

 

Doug

[Viseguy]

I guess we could make do with something like this disclaimer for Happy Fun Ball.

 

Doug

[CAA]

I guess we should all take the advice "if you are seeking a weak ink - just add food coloring to distilled water and call it a day."

 

[SamCapote]

I'm with Viseguy. Does an adult really have to be told that ink stains? Were I to read all of the instructions on my extension ladder, I'd have to allow an extra day for a minor home repair.........moreover, lost in all of the likely unread moronic verbiage about not leaning a metal ladder against a live power line, or not to attempt to balance on the very top step after consuming a fifth of Jack Daniels, all the while having a heated quarrel with the wife......is the one useful instruction about ladder angle. Also, if there are technical terms in a product description that a user doesn't understand, the user has a responsibility to find out what they mean. Go to the Wikipedia or post a query on FPN. Must manufacturers now have several levels of instructions catering to all possible levels of ignorance?

 

This is the type of post that I find personally offensive....with the clear inference that I am ignorant because I honestly did not know that there was even a chance of a blue ink staining the yellow plastic barrel of a respected brand of fountain pen. I have been on this forum for 6 months, and never have come accross a post that this is a known or likely problem.

 

I have a doctoral degree, and I am not ignorant. It is purely an issue of awareness & inadequate warngin that I hoped my post and pictures would contribute to the community.

 

I also do not appreciate the viseguy and others fitting my experience into the famous hot coffee analogy. There was obviously something about this ink that compelled Nathan to add the pH range on the label. My point is that pH range did not occur to me as a warning, nor did the description "Vintage ink." Specifically, it never occurred to me that the pH listing was intended to indicate a higher propensity of BSB staining an outside pen barrel plastic. An appropriate comparison would be if a coffee maker printed: "Coffee at 140° F" and assumed that everyone would know that was a range which could burn a person. Listing a pH on an ink label is not an adequate warning of this issue.

 

I submit that most fountain pen users would not expect that an ink (of any color) would stain a plastic fountain pen barrel. This was a new issue for me, and I'm sure for other readers. There is a new prominent warning on Swisher Pen's ink webpage. There is a level of responsibility that the maker of a product bears when an item causes harm that an average person/product user would not have expected.

 

Go back and read my first post, and post #91 with additional photos, and stop with the personal insulting language, and making irrelevant comparisons that do not apply to this specific situation.