Baystate Blue Ruined My Yellow Lamy

[cmenice]

I really like the idea of a mystery ink. Though, I think it would be safer for all if it was PH neutral. If you know that a particular ink is prone to staining (something like plastic or anything) you can be more careful. When it's a mystery? Well, I guess you could treat it the same way. Just assume.

 

On another note, it'd be fun to illustrate a mystery ink #1 label for Noodler's.

[Tournevis]

I've had a couple of inks "threaten" to stain my sinks. Like the OP, I scrubbed with SoftScrub or otherwise soaked in bleach. Neither were Noodlers inks.

 

Same here. It was Namiki blue (my favorite). I simply rinse with warm water and rub with my finger. If there is still some hint of a stain, I use rubbing alcohol on a tissue. So far, that's worked everytime.

[greencobra]

I've been reading this thread for a couple of days and laughing. Not at the dilemma of the OP's pen and all the kitchen table testing...and I should say you never see me take sides and get political...but how vigorously Nathan and Noodlers get defended. First, before you condem me to fountain pen hell, someone before me mentioned that one uses an ink with confidence that it won't stain the outside resins of a pen. This one did. I don't think it is so out of line to expect a disclaimer on the box or bottle stating the fact. It was known that ink was "different". Now, what I find amusing is, just say for instance, a certain Asian pen seller whom no one seems to, shall we say...respect...sold this ink, well the tune would be different. You know it would. You all would be crying to heaven with closed fists shaking in the air for blood.

 

So which one of you forgiving souls are going to stick their light colored vintage or expensive modern pen in first and drench it with this blue liquid gold? Oh, no one? That's what I thought.

 

Me, I'm getting a couple bottles, but it won't be going into anything except...well, you know the rest.

 

I'd still like to see a disclaimer on the bottle so I could make up my own mind if I wanted a ruined pen instead of letting a blind trust I had in Noodlers make up my mind for me. That's all, you my now twist and shout!

[loplop]

wouldn't it be ironic if this thread actually *improved* sales of BSB?

 

I don't even use Noodler's inks, and I'm thinking of buying it, just because of this thread. The ink stains (really? that's why I usually buy it), the owner's name is Nathan (mine is, too), and the color is really great.

[Jimmy James]

I've been reading this thread for a couple of days and laughing. Not at the dilemma of the OP's pen and all the kitchen table testing...and I should say you never see me take sides and get political...but how vigorously Nathan and Noodlers get defended. First, before you condem me to fountain pen hell, someone before me mentioned that one uses an ink with confidence that it won't stain the outside resins of a pen. This one did. I don't think it is so out of line to expect a disclaimer on the box or bottle stating the fact. It was known that ink was "different". Now, what I find amusing is, just say for instance, a certain Asian pen seller whom no one seems to, shall we say...respect...sold this ink, well the tune would be different. You know it would. You all would be crying to heaven with closed fists shaking in the air for blood.

 

I have to say I'm with Nathan's lawyer -- ink stains. That's pretty common sense. Therefore, I don't think a lot of people would be crying for blood if somebody took their rare white Parker 41 and stuck it in some Asian ink, resulting in a stain. In fact, I'd suggest that's why many folks have lesser pens like a Safari. I'll note that's not where I'm at in the hobby because I'd consider a Safari a nice pen if I had one. I have my own test pens, though.

 

Beyond that, I'm not really sure why it's so funny that reputation gets figured in. Noodler's is a brand that Nathan has worked hard at cultivating by creating some really impressive inks. If I bought some no-name pen for the first time and it was a lemon, I'd consider the source and wouldn't be as accepting as if it were a Pelikan that happened to be a lemon.

[Nancy]

I don't own the new Bayside Blue, but it looks beautiful. Maybe just a simple "Caution, Do not mix with other inks, may stain some pens" is all that's needed to resolve the issue.

 

Recently acquired Year of the Golden Pig that came with a Preppy pen fitted with a fiber tip. I'll never go back to buying disposable highlighters! Fantastic.

 

Now I read this in Nathan's post:

 

"Panda" (white on top, black on the bottom) and "Cherry Blossom" (white on top, bright red on the bottom) that write with mixed color lines and sometimes stripes - they remain apart because the dye families are of divergent weights and properties and do not mix...remaining separate in the bottle with a fine line of demarcation between the two that can be seen through the glass.

 

Way cool!! Wish I could get some!

 

 

[SamCapote]

A word of thanks to the mods who allowed me to revise my post #91 and show the additional images without having my points be obscured by 'less diplomatic words' I used in the heat of the moment. I have never been on a forum with moderators dedicated to individual members being able to make their essential points, but without unnecessary rhetoric.

[girlieg33k]

I have to say I'm with Nathan's lawyer -- ink stains. That's pretty common sense.

As I already noted -- bearing in mind that all ink stains, is it part of your "common sense" to see a pen (any pen) emerge from a bottle of ink irreparably stained like the Lamy Safari? I love that the Lamy Safari took a hit for our more prized pens, but we all seem to be missing the point that greencobra made. The point is, yes ink stains -- but it's all relative -- and when it's out of proportion to what we normally and reasonably expect, a head's up would have been nice. Or has Noodler's staining properties become a standard for its brand that we're all considered "on notice" that we are first to test it Noodler's inks first on part pens and low-end, no-name pens? Is that essentially what you're saying?

 

I'm not bashing Noodler's. I think most here know that I've purchased my share, traded my share, and keep a few in my stable, and have lauded a few in my ink reviews. Yet, if a newly released Waterman ink did that to one my pens, I would wonder what the hell was going on. Given Noodler's past stated positions about ink not staining plastics (see Lloyd's previous post way in the beginning of this thread), this one is even more surprising and most unexpected. The point everyone seems to have brushed over is this was clearly an unexpected result, despite the "common knowledge" that ink stains. And if you need proof of how just unexpected it was, just review the "whoa," "yikes," and "thanks for letting us know" in the beginning of this thread before everyone began the "pile-on" mentality in reverse.

 

Given the initial reaction to the OP's post and photo, I would say this was an unexpected result. Yes ink stains, and yet we all seemed to still be surprised at the photo. PenWorks did an interesting test on various plastics. It's interesting that I've never seen the same types of tests done on Waterman, Sheaffer, Herbin, or Diamine. I wonder why that is... Diamine just released a bunch of new colours by the way, and no warnings are on their bottles either. I have all of them, and none have defaced any of my pens. If any of those new colours had, you can bet I would have posted about it and would have contacted the company. Why? Simple: the result would have been unexpected. I reckon PenWorks did not feel the need to do any tests on those new Diamine inks because we've not yet had reported cases like that Lamy Safari. It's a $30 pen (now probably more valuable), but don't discard the warning it heeded. It gave you the warning you deserved so as not to put Baystate Blue in your most prized pen -- be it a $30 Lamy Safari or your brand spanking new Michael Perchin pen.

 

[lefty928]

I have to say I'm with Nathan's lawyer -- ink stains. That's pretty common sense.

As I already noted -- bearing in mind that all ink stains, is it part of your "common sense" to see a pen (any pen) emerge from a bottle of ink irreparably stained like the Lamy Safari? I love that the Lamy Safari took a hit for our more prized pens, but we all seem to be missing the point that greencobra made. The point is, yes ink stains -- but it's all relative -- and when it's out of proportion to what we normally and reasonably expect, a head's up would have been nice. Or has Noodler's staining properties become a standard for its brand that we're all considered "on notice" that we are first to test it Noodler's inks first on part pens and low-end, no-name pens? Is that essentially what you're saying?

 

I'm not bashing Noodler's. I think most here know that I've purchased my share, traded my share, and keep a few in my stable, and have lauded a few in my ink reviews. Yet, if a newly released Waterman ink did that to one my pens, I would wonder what the hell was going on. Given Noodler's past stated positions about ink not staining plastics (see Lloyd's previous post way in the beginning of this thread), this one is even more surprising and most unexpected. The point everyone seems to have brushed over is this was clearly an unexpected result, despite the "common knowledge" that ink stains. And if you need proof of how just unexpected it was, just review the "whoa," "yikes," and "thanks for letting us know" in the beginning of this thread before everyone began the "pile-on" mentality in reverse.

 

Given the initial reaction to the OP's post and photo, I would say this was an unexpected result. Yes ink stains, and yet we all seemed to still be surprised at the photo. PenWorks did an interesting test on various plastics. It's interesting that I've never seen the same types of tests done on Waterman, Sheaffer, Herbin, or Diamine. I wonder why that is... Diamine just released a bunch of new colours by the way, and no warnings are on their bottles either. I have all of them, and none have defaced any of my pens. If any of those new colours had, you can bet I would have posted about it and would have contacted the company. Why? Simple: the result would have been unexpected. I reckon PenWorks did not feel the need to do any tests on those new Diamine inks because we've not yet had reported cases like that Lamy Safari. It's a $30 pen (now probably more valuable), but don't discard the warning it heeded. It gave you the warning you deserved so as not to put Baystate Blue in your most prized pen -- be it a $30 Lamy Safari or your brand spanking new Michael Perchin pen.

 

Yes, please add my belated thanks for the warning, SamCapote, and for the initial nice image of the vivid ink color on paper as well as on the pen. It's just Good Information To Know in Advance, one way or another, and another reason why FPN is a valuable resource.

 

[tfwall]

Noodler's should make an ink called "Averto!" -- that's Esperanto for warning

Then only a few scholars and some traders/farmers would be able to read it. We should probably be pushing for more market penetration, not making fountain pen products more esoteric...

[Viseguy]

I've been reading this thread for a couple of days and laughing. Not at the dilemma of the OP's pen and all the kitchen table testing...and I should say you never see me take sides and get political...but how vigorously Nathan and Noodlers get defended. First, before you condem me to fountain pen hell, someone before me mentioned that one uses an ink with confidence that it won't stain the outside resins of a pen. This one did. I don't think it is so out of line to expect a disclaimer on the box or bottle stating the fact....

I, for one, wasn't defending Nathan per se. I was, more broadly, decrying the mentality that expects "Caution, contents are hot" warnings on coffee cups -- a subset of the mentality that for every disappointment in life there's a defendant out there waiting to be sued and a lawyer waiting to sue him; a subset, in turn, of the mentality that, regardless of the circumstances, "I'm not responsible, you're responsible!" -- and resisting its spread to the realm of pen-and-ink. It's well-known among FP users -- search any of the leading FP boards -- that FP inks can and often do stain pens made from light-colored materials. In fact, certain colors, such as reds and purples, have a reputation for staining. Yet, has any manufacturer, large or small, of those inks, sold on any continent by anyone, reputable or otherwise, ever been expected to issue a warning against such mishaps? No? So why start now? I'm not pleading for Nathan or Noodler's. I'm just pleading for common sense.

 

OK, end of rant. Lest anyone draw any stereotypical conclusions about me from this rant, let me say that I'm a liberal Democrat, a lawyer, a litigator -- and a government lawyer, a regulator, to boot. But those damn coffee cups get on my nerves!

 

[Viseguy]

Noodler's should make an ink called "Averto!" -- that's Esperanto for warning

Then only a few scholars and some traders/farmers would be able to read it. We should probably be pushing for more market penetration, not making fountain pen products more esoteric...

I was trying to be inclusive. If you print the warning in English, what about the billions of people out there that only speak Chinese, or Hindi, or Urdu? What if a yellow pen in Novosibirsk gets stained? But you're right, perhaps Esperanto is a bit esoteric. Maybe the name of the ink should just be .

 

[gylyf]

I keep seeing the burning cup of coffee analogy, but the analogy is flawed. Any reasonable person should expect a hot cup of coffee to burn; the same cannot be said of ink. In fact, I find all of the "ink stains, duh" talk slightly disingenuous. Spill a hot cup of coffee on anyone and it will burn, yet I've NEVER had an ink stain any of my pens. It is not unreasonable to expect an ink not to stain a pen, if you'll forgive the triple negative.

I have no horse in this race; I don't use any of the Noodlers inks. I just know that if that Lamy were one of my celluloids, I'd be very p'd off, to put it mildly.

Regards,

David

[CAA]

From the "common sense" perspective, the question I have is: when (ink generally/BSB specifically) used in its intended way, is it a reasonable expectation to believe/expect that the ink will stain (and perhaps permanently) a common pen?

 

[kiavonne]

From the "common sense" perspective, the question I have is: when (ink generally/BSB specifically) used in its intended way, is it a reasonable expectation to believe/expect that the ink will stain (and perhaps permanently) a common pen?

 

 

Ink is ink. There is no ink out there that isn't going to have a problem somehow, somewhere, with something. I have a nicely green-highlighted wooden coffee table as a result.

 

Baystate could very well stain a common pen, depending upon that common pen's makeup and components. So could other inks. The idea here is to be aware of what you are working with, and make hopefully informed decisions about what you want to do.

 

These are the reasons I'm glad this thread happened.

 

SamCapote brought his dismay to us, yes. He liked the ink, but he likes his pen, too. Of course he's upset, and he's the right to say so. He chose to let us know about a potential problem, and I appreciate this effort. However, he also sent us all a little wakeup call. How often do we forget in our modern world that sometimes things need to be thought out? Comfortable grooves cradle us all to some extent, and sometimes we just get so caught up in the excitement or pleasure or simplicity of things that we forget that we can get bit now and again.

 

Nathan Tardif has a wonderful little company out there. He is proud of it, as well he should be. It's a small business doing a great service with a little fun and irony attached. He speaks his mind, as is his right under our Constitution and its amendments. He has some strong opinions. But it is his venture, his story, his life involved here, too. He has the right to defend, as well. He has tried to take everything into consideration when he creates his inks, but I don't think it's possible for any one person to be able to know every possible outcome of everything they try.

 

I respect both ends of this thread, and everything in the middle connecting points A and B. This thread has brought a lot of thought forward that we might not have ever considered in the past.

 

 

Edited February 3, 2008 by kiavonne

[macthemaths]

I keep seeing the burning cup of coffee analogy, but the analogy is flawed. Any reasonable person should expect a hot cup of coffee to burn; the same cannot be said of ink. In fact, I find all of the "ink stains, duh" talk slightly disingenuous. Spill a hot cup of coffee on anyone and it will burn, yet I've NEVER had an ink stain any of my pens. It is not unreasonable to expect an ink not to stain a pen, if you'll forgive the triple negative.

I have no horse in this race; I don't use any of the Noodlers inks. I just know that if that Lamy were one of my celluloids, I'd be very p'd off, to put it mildly.

Regards,

David

 

Thanks. This precisely echoes my own thoughts.

 

Chris

 

[Splicer]

OK, end of rant. Lest anyone draw any stereotypical conclusions about me from this rant, let me say that I'm a liberal Democrat, a lawyer, a litigator -- and a government lawyer, a regulator, to boot. But those damn coffee cups get on my nerves!

 

They used to bother me, too. I found them downright insulting. But let me play devil's non-advocate for a moment, as I had a realization one day that if a friend handed me a cup of coffee and said, "careful, it's hot" I would pleased by the courtesy rather than offended. Now when I see a disclaimer, I try to imagine if a human being were to say it to me when handing the product over.

 

If Nathan were in the room with me right now---OK, that's a little weird, but ignore that for the moment---and handed me a bottle of ink saying, "by the way, be careful with this. It's more alkaline than most of my inks and it's more likely to leave stains," I'd feel grateful, not patronized.

 

Which is not to say that Nathan or Starbucks should be forced to put disclaimers on anything. However, labels on bottles are for information about what's in the bottle, right? It seems to me that anything that can be claimed unique about an ink can be used as a selling point while providing adequate warning about how to use the contents.

 

Something like "Special formula for advanced users only." Like the cigarette companies do with their anti-smoking campaigns: "don't smoke 'til you're 18 because you're just not cool enough yet." You don't have to apologize for what's in the bottle, just describe it. And just like everything else in life, if you can't fix it, feature it!

[Pendragon]

So was the problem seen by the original poster due to the ink, the type of plastic used in the pen or an unfortunate combination of the two?

[kiavonne]

So was the problem seen by the original poster due to the ink, the type of plastic used in the pen or an unfortunate combination of the two?

 

Not being a scientist with the resources available to devote to testing, I would have to offer that it was likely an unfortunate combination of the two, and that caution and thought should follow with similar situations.

Edited February 3, 2008 by kiavonne

[BirdValiant]

OK, end of rant. Lest anyone draw any stereotypical conclusions about me from this rant, let me say that I'm a liberal Democrat, a lawyer, a litigator -- and a government lawyer, a regulator, to boot. But those damn coffee cups get on my nerves!

 

They used to bother me, too. I found them downright insulting. But let me play devil's non-advocate for a moment, as I had a realization one day that if a friend handed me a cup of coffee and said, "careful, it's hot" I would pleased by the courtesy rather than offended. Now when I see a disclaimer, I try to imagine if a human being were to say it to me when handing the product over.

 

If Nathan were in the room with me right now---OK, that's a little weird, but ignore that for the moment---and handed me a bottle of ink saying, "by the way, be careful with this. It's more alkaline than most of my inks and it's more likely to leave stains," I'd feel grateful, not patronized.

 

Which is not to say that Nathan or Starbucks should be forced to put disclaimers on anything. However, labels on bottles are for information about what's in the bottle, right? It seems to me that anything that can be claimed unique about an ink can be used as a selling point while providing adequate warning about how to use the contents.

 

Something like "Special formula for advanced users only." Like the cigarette companies do with their anti-smoking campaigns: "don't smoke 'til you're 18 because you're just not cool enough yet." You don't have to apologize for what's in the bottle, just describe it. And just like everything else in life, if you can't fix it, feature it!

 

I agree; a simple addition to the labels (which can be a sticker for the ones produced already) that says something like "may stain certain bright plastics" is all that is really needed. This isn't needed for all inks, only the ones that are especially prone to staining.

 

Some warning labels are useful, others are not. If an ink is more likely than others to stain a pen, include it. Hot coffee.... I still don't like those ones. Open cap away from face because contents under pressure... now that's just obviously there to avoid lawsuits. And there are many others, like "do not iron while wearing shirt," etc. Here's a link to the wacky labels contest: Wacky Labels

 

So my two cents are to include a one sentence addendum to the label, then go back to enjoying fountain pens.

 

Cake?

Edited February 3, 2008 by BirdValiant