Are Cross Pens still Made in the USA?

[TallDarkStranger]

I am truly amazed at some of the comments made here:

 

Here are my opinions on the issues discussed, specifically with regard to some major opinions.

 

1. China is an enemy.

 

Well, US trade with China is greater than US trade with France and Germany. Countries typically don't trade with enemies.

 

2. Chinese products are mediocre.

 

Some Chinese products are definitely mediocre but they are also cheap. Case in point Hero pens. Other products made in China, e.g., most Apple products are of very high quality. Cross pens are definitely not any poorer in quality now than they used to be. All my "made in America" cross pens that I use regularly have made a $10 trip to the Cross factory for repairs, surely not a sign of high quality.

 

3. We must support a "made in America" philosophy.

 

While your patriotism is impressive, protecting sick American companies that cannot compete globally defies the free market values that is core to American business, and is thus un-American. May the best company/product win, wherever they are from.

 

4. We must support European companies if not American companies because they are our allies.

 

HA HA HA. Smacks of western imperialism. Why support French companies at all. The French hate us; more so than the Chinese. Most Europeans have a lower opinion of the US than say, Indians (people, and companies, in India love Americans). Hence, by the common prevailing logic, lets buy Walities instead of Pelikan.

 

Just my two, perhaps three, cents.

Edited March 4, 2009 by TallDarkStranger

[Deirdre]

  Pepin said:

I don't want to feed the fire but I'm particularly annoyed when people here use Japan to compare with China's quality direction. I too have heard of how their toys imported to the US and Canada in the 50s fell apart when the package is opened and dining utensils rust when washed.

 

However, I have owned more than my share of older Japanese made products and they are substantially "better" than the Chinese imported stuff made now. Some of these products came from the 60s, which would grant Japan about 15 years before their quality is improved. I also owned Japanese products from the early 50s (labeled Made in Occupied Japan) which have shown quality even then.

 

I'm not offended by the comparison because I remember those earlier days when "Made in Japan" was generally antithtetical to quality. Generally.

 

The stuff you've owned recently made in Japan in the 50s? Obviously was better than average in that it survived.

 

I remember when Japanese cars sold for less because they were generally considered to be junk. Even the Datsun B210, which started the change toward Japanese cars, wasn't terribly well made, nor were the early Civics. However, they got great gas mileage during the first gas crisis, and that's most of what mattered at the time.

[AndyH]

Pepin, while I think your political analysis of the Clinton presidency is very far off base (e.g - the gap between top and bottom quintiles of American income groups has nearly trebled during the past eight years. Whether that is good or bad is not the point, but the facts seem inarguable), I am in complete agreement with your statement on the quality of Chinese and Japanese manufactures.

 

I'll cite one technical area with which I'm very familiar - The post-war Japanese camera industry was more advanced than the American one in many respects, and quickly became competitive and even superior to the German. By the late fifties camera lines like the Nikon S and Canon 7 interchangeable lens rangefinders were of equal optical quality and probably superior mechanical quality to their Leitz and Zeiss competitors Leica and Contax.

 

I have seen similar things happening with Chinese manufactured goods over the past decade, at least in my opinion. Some of the hand tools, in particular, have gone from being poorly machined products of poor quality steel to being equal to long-established European and American brands.

 

The products that are popularly associated with "cheap Japanese quality" in some American minds were largely non-precise goods, made of cheap materials, that were built specifically for the export market. Cheap, tin and plastic Japanese toys and knick knacks were being produced at precisely the same time that Konica, Nippon Kogaku, Minolta, and other high tech manufacturers were developing innovative new products and producing finely made products for both export and import.

 

We may well be seeing something similar happening in China right now - where the maturing Chinese industrial system is showing its mettle whilst simultaneously producing the knick knacks and bric-a-brac that can't be produced as cheaply anywhere else in the world. As Chinese industry develops, perhaps "Made in China" will become symbolic of high quality precision and "Made in ___ " will become the new emblem for cheaply built manufactured goods.

[Deirdre]

  AndyH said:

The products that are popularly associated with "cheap Japanese quality" in some American minds were largely non-precise goods, made of cheap materials, that were built specifically for the export market. Cheap, tin and plastic Japanese toys and knick knacks were being produced at precisely the same time that Konica, Nippon Kogaku, Minolta, and other high tech manufacturers were developing innovative new products and producing finely made products for both export and import.

 

We may well be seeing something similar happening in China right now - where the maturing Chinese industrial system is showing its mettle whilst simultaneously producing the knick knacks and bric-a-brac that can't be produced as cheaply anywhere else in the world.

In part, the historic lack of steel (and the inappropriateness of steel alternatives for some things) also was an issue for Japan. The housebuilding techniques used historically in Japan -- involving no steel or nails -- was a workable alternative to western methods. It's not that Japan didn't have good steel techniques, they had the best in the world. What they lacked was quantity of raw ingredients.

 

After WW2, international trade made steel more available to Japan.

 

 

[AndyH]

Another excellent point Deirdre! Some of my Japanese woodcarving tools and handsaws date back to the fifties, and exhibit superior workmanship, even though they are made from lower-priced (and lower quality) steel.

 

Surprisingly, the shortage of high grade materials was also a problem in many precision German industries, especially those trapped east of the Iron Curtain. Again, there are numerous examples from the camera field.

[jsroe]

  ookiihito said:

Hi,

 

I am curious to know if Cross still manufactures in the USA? Conversely, was the Cross Townsend Made in the USA?

 

Thanks!

 

Who cares these days where it is made! The vast majority of flat panel TVs we all spend thousands on are all made overseas where cost of production is low, so we can all afford them. Cross brand is still USA, and as American as Mustang, Superbowl, and the hotdog. As long as quality and value is upheld, and the company is HQd in the US, I will continue buying Cross pens.

[writebyhand]

 

 

Isn't the Jotter still made in the U.K?

 

Yes, the Jotter is still made in the U.K. The jotters I bought at my local Publix supermarket in Florida about a week ago are labeled "Made in U.K."

[The Toecutter]

  Stylo said:

When production of a product is moved to another country, or even a different plant within the same country, one cannot simply assume that everything will be exactly the same. The manufacturing machines may be slightly different and they may be operating in a different way. Materials can also vary a little. Quality control can be different. Workers may also perform differently, not because they are of different ethnicity/culture/whatever, but because they may be performing in different environments under different conditions/pressures/etc. A simple example: I have seen two Camrys from same exact model year and same trim having slight differences, because one was made in Japan and the other in the U.S. Slight differences in locally sourced parts accounted for these differences.

 

Finally, there is also the reality that production is often shipped overseas for cost saving, and cost cutting measures seem often packaged to include more than just moving manufacturing locations. With some naivete, some may hope that the reduced costs would leave room for higher quality or a reduction in price. But usually, neither happens. You get the same price with lower quality. You get, for example, rusting screws on stainless steel BBQs, or worse, you get "stainless steel" bodies that rust.

 

Of course, I am not implying in any way that this is the rule and I am certainly not singling out China.

 

PS: And it seems like I am getting off topic, as I have no firm opinion on Cross pens made in China versus the U.S.A. I have two Townsends to compare, but I cannot attribute the differences to the country where they were made, as one is a higher end model with gold nib while the other one is a lower end finish with a steel nib. And even if I had the same model made in different countries, differences can always be due to Cross specs having changed after moving to a difference manufacturing country.

 

 

I 100% agree with this. American companies have a long history of doing this. Quietly moving production to countries where labor costs are much lower, sourcing less expensive and mostly inferior parts, and charging THE SAME or MORE for the product. Dewalt(Black and Decker) and most of the tool industry did that with their drills and other powertools, Hartmann did this with their luggage. Bosca did the same with their wallets/ leather goods, so did Coach.. Cross has done this with their pens.

 

In my eyes, that is a RIPOFF. I don't like getting ripped off, so I don't buy it.

 

I wouldn't mind if Cross lowered pricing on the pens after outsourcing, but they haven't, so I'm out.

 

Now some companies start producing overseas and tell people they are going to do it and actually lower tthe prices.

 

Benchmade did this with their knives. They produced a "value" line in Taiwan. They were up front about it and produced a good product at a reduced cost. This I don't mind.

 

Edited March 31, 2009 by The Toecutter

[all my hues]

  TallDarkStranger said:

Most Europeans have a lower opinion of the US than say, Indians (people, and companies, in India love Americans).

 

They do? You're speaking for quite a large demograph, there...

Edited March 31, 2009 by all my hues

[Parker51]

No, they are made in China, and they are likely no longer made by Cross.

 

Most USA Manufactures that "shift production" to China actually simply quit producing their products. Instead, they find, usually through a middle man, a jobber whom will reproduce their products for them at as low a price as possible.

 

Actual production of a product may change from year to year, and model to model, even item to item. Quality may suffer depending on the nature of the contracts.

 

Copies can start appearing, as current suppliers may produce unauthorized items to sell on the side, may unload factory seconds, or may continue to produce items for sale after they have lost their contracts to produce licensed items. I have heard of this happening from my spouses former company. It can get so bad that ones competitors can sell at retail copies of ones companies exclusive designs at less than wholesale. they had to drop whole product lines, and terminate the designers that designed their products as they ended up paying for the design costs, and then being undercut by cheap copies.

 

So let the buyer beware. Cross is a small Company. Pens can be made by even smaller companies. The Cross designs have likely all entered into the world of the jobber. I have heard, and read nothing to suggest that Cross set up their own wholly owned production facility in China, so they are likely using jobbers. So, even if Cross would know someone is producing a Pirate copy of their products, does Cross have the resources to tract the Pirates down and stop them from half a world away? I do not know that this has happened to Cross, but it has happened to other Companies products.

[The Toecutter]

  Parker51 said:

No, they are made in China, and they are likely no longer made by Cross.

 

Most USA Manufactures that "shift production" to China actually simply quit producing their products. Instead, they find, usually through a middle man, a jobber whom will reproduce their products for them at as low a price as possible.

 

Actual production of a product may change from year to year, and model to model, even item to item. Quality may suffer depending on the nature of the contracts.

 

Copies can start appearing, as current suppliers may produce unauthorized items to sell on the side, may unload factory seconds, or may continue to produce items for sale after they have lost their contracts to produce licensed items. I have heard of this happening from my spouses former company. It can get so bad that ones competitors can sell at retail copies of ones companies exclusive designs at less than wholesale. they had to drop whole product lines, and terminate the designers that designed their products as they ended up paying for the design costs, and then being undercut by cheap copies.

 

So let the buyer beware. Cross is a small Company. Pens can be made by even smaller companies. The Cross designs have likely all entered into the world of the jobber. I have heard, and read nothing to suggest that Cross set up their own wholly owned production facility in China, so they are likely using jobbers. So, even if Cross would know someone is producing a Pirate copy of their products, does Cross have the resources to tract the Pirates down and stop them from half a world away? I do not know that this has happened to Cross, but it has happened to other Companies products.

 

Yes, this sounds completely logical. I've seen this happen in companies I have worked for. Cross is just a brand name now who buys pens from the lowest bidding factory. Tag Heuer does this with watches. It wouldn't shock me to see Tag cases and bracelets sourced from Asia. Have you seen the replicas coming out of Asia lately? They are pretty frightening to say the least. Where does that stuff come from? I bet it comes out of the same factories that are producing "Swiss" watch parts. They just do multiple runs...the higher quality for their real customer, and lower quality for the rep market..

 

That's why I won't spend $150 on a new C-Series pen. It probably cost <$15 to make and I have no idea who actually made it.

 

If it was still made in the US, I'd consider it. Bought from a jobber factory? Nope.

[Stylo]

I think U.S presidents should switch from Cross to Bexley

 

[Gehaha]

  TallDarkStranger said:

I am truly amazed at some of the comments made here:.................

 

HA HA HA. Smacks of western imperialism. Why support French companies at all. The French hate us; more so than the Chinese. Most Europeans have a lower opinion of the US than say, Indians (people, and companies, in India love Americans). Hence, by the common prevailing logic, lets buy Walities instead of Pelikan.

 

Just my two, perhaps three, cents.

 

Hello,

 

I think, you are wrong with that. Not enough acquaintance with Europeans, I guess.

France is known for "National Pride" , a very self confident country, quite like the USA.

If that means hating other nations, you maybe right.

 

Germans are USA fans. Our postwar history, you know.

Europe and the USA are deeply connected through history and family

history. It's more than natural, that we feel deeply connected.

 

If there is a good marketing for american goods, european consumers buy it (Kitchen Aid is a good

example).

 

Consuming should not become an issue of national hostility.

 

Best,

Anna

 

 

[adamselene]

The competition our labor has from the third world exacerbates the underlying issue which is automation.

 

Capitalism has, I fear, run its course as a useful institution.

 

If we do not come up with a rational solution, people will be obsolete.

 

IMNSHO.

[PenHero]

  Parker51 said:

So let the buyer beware. Cross is a small Company. Pens can be made by even smaller companies. The Cross designs have likely all entered into the world of the jobber. I have heard, and read nothing to suggest that Cross set up their own wholly owned production facility in China, so they are likely using jobbers. So, even if Cross would know someone is producing a Pirate copy of their products, does Cross have the resources to tract the Pirates down and stop them from half a world away? I do not know that this has happened to Cross, but it has happened to other Companies products.

 

This is an assumption and entirely hearsay. If you have facts, state them. You might find it interesting that Cross moved their engraving machines to China where their pens are made. Such an expensive proposition does not indicate a random lowest bidder approach.

 

Cheers,

 

Jim Mamoulides

www.PenHero.com

 

[rsx]

Here is something I don't understand.

Cross makes its pens in China today, presumably because of lower costs, mostly lower labor costs. This is supposedly because high labor costs in the US make it uneconomical to make pens here.

However, although European labor costs are as high as in the US, look at all of the successful pen makers there. Pelikan, Lamy, Mont Blanc in Germany, Waterman and Cartier in France, Parker, YOL and Conway Stewart in UK, Omas, Visconti and Delta in Italy, and I am certainly forgetting many.

So how come it is economical to make pens in Europe with high labor costs but not econmical to make pens in the US with high labor costs?

What is really going on here?

(And this could apply to more than just pens...)

[Deirdre]

  rsx said:

France, Parker, YOL and Conway Stewart in UK, Omas, Visconti and Delta in Italy, and I am certainly forgetting many.

So how come it is economical to make pens in Europe with high labor costs but not econmical to make pens in the US with high labor costs?

What is really going on here?

(And this could apply to more than just pens...)

So let's compare apples to apples for few moments, shall we?

 

Looking for the lowest-end gold-nibbed pen each company offers, based on list price. Where possible, I've used Swisher or FPH for list prices:

 

Parker: Sonnet, $240

Conway Stewart: Wellington, $440

Omas: Bologna, $345

Visconti: Van Gogh Maxi, $295

Delta: Dolcevita Mini Collection, $365

Montblanc: Generation, $265 (unsure if that's the retail btw), next least expensive is ~$475 (Starwalker resin)

Aurora: Ipsilon Deluxe or Talentum Finesse, $250

Stipula: Novecento, $495 (sadly, since they discontinued the Ventidue, their minimum gold-nibbed pen jumped from $280 to $495)

 

Cross: Apogee Chrome, $165

 

So does that answer your question? It's not more economical, but economical isn't why I buy fountain pens.

[rsx]

quote]

So does that answer your question? It's not more economical, but economical isn't why I buy fountain pens.

 

Well researched.

So, why doesn't Cross dominate the pen market? Well, we all look for something more than price.

So, why can't Cross continue to make pens in the US that are competitive, both in price and quality, with those from Europe?

What I don't understand is why it is necessary to move the manufacturing process from the US to China (in the case of Cross) or Europe (in the case of Parker).

What is gained? Why has pen manufactuing not only continued but prospered in Europe and all but died out in the US?

[JEBennett]

  Deirdre said:

  rsx said:

France, Parker, YOL and Conway Stewart in UK, Omas, Visconti and Delta in Italy, and I am certainly forgetting many.

So how come it is economical to make pens in Europe with high labor costs but not econmical to make pens in the US with high labor costs?

What is really going on here?

(And this could apply to more than just pens...)

So let's compare apples to apples for few moments, shall we?

 

Looking for the lowest-end gold-nibbed pen each company offers, based on list price. Where possible, I've used Swisher or FPH for list prices:

 

Parker: Sonnet, $240

Conway Stewart: Wellington, $440

Omas: Bologna, $345

Visconti: Van Gogh Maxi, $295

Delta: Dolcevita Mini Collection, $365

Montblanc: Generation, $265 (unsure if that's the retail btw), next least expensive is ~$475 (Starwalker resin)

Aurora: Ipsilon Deluxe or Talentum Finesse, $250

Stipula: Novecento, $495 (sadly, since they discontinued the Ventidue, their minimum gold-nibbed pen jumped from $280 to $495)

 

Cross: Apogee Chrome, $165

 

So does that answer your question? It's not more economical, but economical isn't why I buy fountain pens.

 

Note that the Lamy Studio Palladium finish is a gold nib for ~$135 retail. And the venerable Lamy 2000 is merely $160.

 

[Deirdre]

  JEBennett said:

Note that the Lamy Studio Palladium finish is a gold nib for ~$135 retail. And the venerable Lamy 2000 is merely $160.

Right, I didn't go through all the lines, just the ones the OP mentioned. Also, the Vanishing Point's list price is somewhere around there.