Are Cross Pens still Made in the USA?

[rogerb]

Well, there I was thinking that I needed a good-quality Chinese pen, to 'fill a gap' in my 'worldwide collection'.

 

Then I got myself a very nicely put-together new Cross Townsend from PenHero.....when I saw the printing on the box I realised that the gap is filled! I find it hard to see how it could be 'better-made', in any country.

 

Now, perhaps, an Indian and a Russian ....

 

BTW, my experience with musical instruments has shown that some Chinese companies are capable of producing superbly-engineered products and components .... it is disingenuous to say that all Chinese-made products are "rubbish".

 

(The political implications of 'globalisation' are another ball-game altogether )

[Waterman]

  rogerb said:

Well, there I was thinking that I needed a good-quality Chinese pen, to 'fill a gap' in my 'worldwide collection'.

 

Then I got myself a very nicely put-together new Cross Townsend from PenHero.....when I saw the printing on the box I realised that the gap is filled! I find it hard to see how it could be 'better-made', in any country.

 

Now, perhaps, an Indian and a Russian ....

 

BTW, my experience with musical instruments has shown that some Chinese companies are capable of producing superbly-engineered products and components .... it is disingenuous to say that all Chinese-made products are "rubbish".

 

(The political implications of 'globalisation' are another ball-game altogether )

 

That's a good way to think about globalization, it's not bad, as someone has stated that Cross is doing better than ever as a result of it. Just my 2 cents.

 

Brad

Edited July 8, 2008 by Waterman

[donwinn]

  Waterman said:

  ookiihito said:

  Waterman said:

That is a shame but 50 years from now made in China will be a good thing, kinda like made in Japan back in the 50's.

 

Thanks

Brad

 

 

Never! We'll probably be at war with them by then.

 

That's a strong statement, slightly ignorant dont you think

 

If the US went to war against China, it would likely be a short war, since China has more troops in their army than the US has people in the country. Since the US is so hugely outnumbered, a war would inevitably and probably rapidly, escalate to the nuclear option, obliterating pretty much all intelligent (?) life on the planet.

 

I suspect that the US and China are now at the MAD (mutually assured destruction) level which the US formerly enjoyed with the Soviet Union. The only question is whether China has the ability to deliver the payload effectively. A strong motivator for both countries to prevent war. This is the 25th anniversary of the release of "War Games", and a lot of theaters are having a big screen rerelease party to show the film again. It is a film with a lot of holes in the plot, but it definitely and dramatically demonstrates the futility of total warfare in the modern world.

 

And keep in mind, I am in no way a "peacenik" or peace at any price kind of person. If anything, most people would consider me a "hawk". That does not mean I do not see the futility of nuclear war.

 

Donnie

[fatehbajwa]

I see two issues here.............

 

1.Is the problem that of poor quality after the production has been shifted to China?

 

OR

 

2.Is it that of not buying a pen NOT made in America?

 

IMHO

 

The former is quite understandable for anyone wanting a quality product which most people relate with Cross.

 

The second smacks of a mindset very much out of place in the present world.

Edited July 8, 2008 by fatehbajwa

[JonDoh]

Like most things made in China it is a matter of extremely poor quality while keeping the price at the same level or in many instances raising it.

[Hoarder68]

  fatehbajwa said:

I see two issues here.............

 

1.Is the problem that of poor quality after the production has been shifted to China?

 

OR

 

2.Is it that of not buying a pen NOT made in America?

 

IMHO

 

The former is quite understandable for anyone wanting a quality product which most people relate with Cross.

 

The second smacks of a mindset very much out of place in the present world.

I believe you will find that even if the quality is equal, people in the USA are tired of all of the jobs going to other countries.

[michael_s]

Speaking strictly as a consumer, I don't mind AT Cross' outsourcing as long as:

• their quality doesn't go down
• Cross continues its lifetime warranty (as opposed to Sheaffer and Parker/Waterman's 3 year warranty)
• warranty work can be performed quickly (as opposed to Parker/Waterman taking a month, due to the repair work being in France)

I hope the cost-cutting achieved though outsourcing, will allow Cross to continue to offer their lifetime warranty --- as well as survive in the 21st century.

 

-Mike

Edited July 10, 2008 by michael_s

[rogerb]

I am sorry, it is simply prejudice to make such a sweeping generalisation about the vast quantities of products produced by this huge country, which has a very long history of producing some really wonderful works of art.

 

Of course some Chinese products are of poor quality, but that is also true of the USA, UK, Germany...wherever.

 

As for my 'Chinese Cross', I find it hard to imagine how it could be better-made for the new price I paid.

 

I am no apologist for the Chinese government, and find many Chinese attitudes and habits distasteful at best, but that is not the issue.

 

  JonDoh said:

Like most things made in China it is a matter of extremely poor quality while keeping the price at the same level or in many instances raising it.

Edited July 11, 2008 by rogerb

[pjford]

The point I was making way back was not that any quality is lost by Cross exporting its production, it is more to do with a purchaser's perception of origin. If a Rolex (not a copy)watch was made in China rather than Switzerland the product kudos would be severely reduced. This would also be true of many prestigious items where the name is synonymous with craftsmanship and heritage. If the argument is about quality and only quality then I agree where Cross pens are made is immaterial. If, however it is also about product status then it is material.

[fatehbajwa]

  pjford said:

The point I was making way back was not that any quality is lost by Cross exporting its production, it is more to do with a purchaser's perception of origin. If a Rolex (not a copy)watch was made in China rather than Switzerland the product kudos would be severely reduced. This would also be true of many prestigious items where the name is synonymous with craftsmanship and heritage. If the argument is about quality and only quality then I agree where Cross pens are made is immaterial. If, however it is also about product status then it is material.

 

A thought that got triggered from the above........would the product kudos be as severely reduced if say for example Rolex started making watches in USA/UK as compared to China/Taiwan?

[PeterBeoworld]

Yes, and they would probably be even more expensive!

[rogerb]

Fortunately I don't give a toss about 'product status'....I buy things to use, not to create an impression, nor, with a view to maximising re-sale value.

 

Anyway, as has been said, the view of Japanese products used to be that they were almost exclusively cheap & nasty copies of Western-made items.

Few would say that now.....I guess that sooner or later it will be the same with Chinese goods.

[PenHero]

  JonDoh said:

Like most things made in China it is a matter of extremely poor quality while keeping the price at the same level or in many instances raising it.

 

Please don't start down this path. This is a sweeping statement about Chinese manufacturing that is unsupportable, much as was said about Japanese products only 25 years ago. It also will sound to some of our members in Asia as bordering on racism.

 

Many very high priced and high quality products are made in China. Many very fine consumer products are made there as well.

 

If you want to discuss the specific quality of Cross products, you are welcome to do that.

 

This is not a specific warning to a specific person. I'll lock the thread or delete posts if I see this heading that way.

 

Cheers,

 

Jim Mamoulides

www.PenHero.com

Edited July 25, 2008 by PenHero

[Cross Contamination]

I think most people are not considering one important point when it comes to products that are "Made in China".

 

First, the stereotype is that Chinese products are cheap (i.e. inexpensive cheap plastic knockoffs, etc.). That leads to people thinking that everything from China is cheap.

 

Here's the one important point: There's a difference between Chinese products made in China, and other products made in China (i.e. American products outsourced to the Chinese).

 

What's the difference? The company. Consider the following quality comparisons:

 

1. A BIC pen made in the USA and a Cross pen made in the USA.

2. A BIC pen made in China and a Cross pen made in the USA.

3. A BIC pen made in the USA and a Cross pen made in China.

4. A BIC pen made in China and a Cross pen made in China.

 

I'm sure that most of you agree that for #1, 2 and 4, Cross clearly beats BIC in the quality department. But what about #3? Is a USA-made BIC pen better than a Chinese-made Cross? Probably not.

 

Now comparing Cross against itself (USA vs. China), my argument is this: The quality of the pen does not decrease, because nothing has changed except for the person doing the work. If they're using the same materials, the same machinery and the same manufacturing/quality control processes, the only variable left is that the factory worker is Chinese instead of American (but I can also argue that Chinese people could've worked in the American plant!). So the underlying factor is wages... and my argument for that is that lower wages doesn't necessarily mean lower quality. Wages in China are lower because the cost of living is lower, and the availability of labour is high... the more people you have that are willing and able to work, the less you have to pay them. If America had 1 billion citizens who can buy their groceries for $1 a day, you wouldn't need to pay them $20/hour to manufacture pens.

 

Back to the idea of using the same materials, machinery and manufacturing processes... that is Cross. The company designs the pens, dictates how they are to be made, what they are to be made from, and reject the ones that don't meet their standards. If Cross keeps everything the same after the move to China, then there is really no difference between an American-made pen and a Chinese-made pen. It's all psychological.

 

I can't say the same for Hero vs. Parker, though. In that case, we're comparing two different companies with two different business models, which could result in different product qualities.

[Waterman]

  Cross Contamination said:

I think most people are not considering one important point when it comes to products that are "Made in China".

 

First, the stereotype is that Chinese products are cheap (i.e. inexpensive cheap plastic knockoffs, etc.). That leads to people thinking that everything from China is cheap.

 

Here's the one important point: There's a difference between Chinese products made in China, and other products made in China (i.e. American products outsourced to the Chinese).

 

What's the difference? The company. Consider the following quality comparisons:

 

1. A BIC pen made in the USA and a Cross pen made in the USA.

2. A BIC pen made in China and a Cross pen made in the USA.

3. A BIC pen made in the USA and a Cross pen made in China.

4. A BIC pen made in China and a Cross pen made in China.

 

I'm sure that most of you agree that for #1, 2 and 4, Cross clearly beats BIC in the quality department. But what about #3? Is a USA-made BIC pen better than a Chinese-made Cross? Probably not.

 

Now comparing Cross against itself (USA vs. China), my argument is this: The quality of the pen does not decrease, because nothing has changed except for the person doing the work. If they're using the same materials, the same machinery and the same manufacturing/quality control processes, the only variable left is that the factory worker is Chinese instead of American (but I can also argue that Chinese people could've worked in the American plant!). So the underlying factor is wages... and my argument for that is that lower wages doesn't necessarily mean lower quality. Wages in China are lower because the cost of living is lower, and the availability of labour is high... the more people you have that are willing and able to work, the less you have to pay them. If America had 1 billion citizens who can buy their groceries for $1 a day, you wouldn't need to pay them $20/hour to manufacture pens.

 

Back to the idea of using the same materials, machinery and manufacturing processes... that is Cross. The company designs the pens, dictates how they are to be made, what they are to be made from, and reject the ones that don't meet their standards. If Cross keeps everything the same after the move to China, then there is really no difference between an American-made pen and a Chinese-made pen. It's all psychological.

 

I can't say the same for Hero vs. Parker, though. In that case, we're comparing two different companies with two different business models, which could result in different product qualities.

 

Ditto, also since everything today is made by machines the whole pen is practically made by a machine, the same machine they used in the states.

 

Thanks

Brad

Edited August 15, 2008 by Waterman

[GARY UK]

  Cross Contamination said:

I think most people are not considering one important point when it comes to products that are "Made in China".

 

First, the stereotype is that Chinese products are cheap (i.e. inexpensive cheap plastic knockoffs, etc.). That leads to people thinking that everything from China is cheap.

 

Here's the one important point: There's a difference between Chinese products made in China, and other products made in China (i.e. American products outsourced to the Chinese).

 

What's the difference? The company. Consider the following quality comparisons:

 

1. A BIC pen made in the USA and a Cross pen made in the USA.

2. A BIC pen made in China and a Cross pen made in the USA.

3. A BIC pen made in the USA and a Cross pen made in China.

4. A BIC pen made in China and a Cross pen made in China.

 

I'm sure that most of you agree that for #1, 2 and 4, Cross clearly beats BIC in the quality department. But what about #3? Is a USA-made BIC pen better than a Chinese-made Cross? Probably not.

 

Now comparing Cross against itself (USA vs. China), my argument is this: The quality of the pen does not decrease, because nothing has changed except for the person doing the work. If they're using the same materials, the same machinery and the same manufacturing/quality control processes, the only variable left is that the factory worker is Chinese instead of American (but I can also argue that Chinese people could've worked in the American plant!). So the underlying factor is wages... and my argument for that is that lower wages doesn't necessarily mean lower quality. Wages in China are lower because the cost of living is lower, and the availability of labour is high... the more people you have that are willing and able to work, the less you have to pay them. If America had 1 billion citizens who can buy their groceries for $1 a day, you wouldn't need to pay them $20/hour to manufacture pens.

 

Back to the idea of using the same materials, machinery and manufacturing processes... that is Cross. The company designs the pens, dictates how they are to be made, what they are to be made from, and reject the ones that don't meet their standards. If Cross keeps everything the same after the move to China, then there is really no difference between an American-made pen and a Chinese-made pen. It's all psychological.

 

I can't say the same for Hero vs. Parker, though. In that case, we're comparing two different companies with two different business models, which could result in different product qualities.

 

Well said I have 1 china made Cross pen but still look for the pens with U.S.A. stamped on the caps

 

[Stylo]

When production of a product is moved to another country, or even a different plant within the same country, one cannot simply assume that everything will be exactly the same. The manufacturing machines may be slightly different and they may be operating in a different way. Materials can also vary a little. Quality control can be different. Workers may also perform differently, not because they are of different ethnicity/culture/whatever, but because they may be performing in different environments under different conditions/pressures/etc. A simple example: I have seen two Camrys from same exact model year and same trim having slight differences, because one was made in Japan and the other in the U.S. Slight differences in locally sourced parts accounted for these differences.

 

Finally, there is also the reality that production is often shipped overseas for cost saving, and cost cutting measures seem often packaged to include more than just moving manufacturing locations. With some naivete, some may hope that the reduced costs would leave room for higher quality or a reduction in price. But usually, neither happens. You get the same price with lower quality. You get, for example, rusting screws on stainless steel BBQs, or worse, you get "stainless steel" bodies that rust.

 

Of course, I am not implying in any way that this is the rule and I am certainly not singling out China.

 

PS: And it seems like I am getting off topic, as I have no firm opinion on Cross pens made in China versus the U.S.A. I have two Townsends to compare, but I cannot attribute the differences to the country where they were made, as one is a higher end model with gold nib while the other one is a lower end finish with a steel nib. And even if I had the same model made in different countries, differences can always be due to Cross specs having changed after moving to a difference manufacturing country.

 

Edited February 11, 2009 by Stylo

[Garageboy]

Wait, are any Crosses still US made?

[PenHero]

  Garageboy said:

Wait, are any Crosses still US made?

 

No

 

Jim Mamoulides

www.PenHero.com

 

[Pepin]

I don't want to feed the fire but I'm particularly annoyed when people here use Japan to compare with China's quality direction. I too have heard of how their toys imported to the US and Canada in the 50s fell apart when the package is opened and dining utensils rust when washed.

 

However, I have owned more than my share of older Japanese made products and they are substantially "better" than the Chinese imported stuff made now. Some of these products came from the 60s, which would grant Japan about 15 years before their quality is improved. I also owned Japanese products from the early 50s (labeled Made in Occupied Japan) which have shown quality even then. How long has the Chinese been in business? I first see the influx of Chinese goods to North America in the early 90s. Now, in 2009, they have had more than 15 years to refine their craft...why has quality not improved?

 

As one poster has mentioned, it's true that the rift between the rich and poor has widened over the years, and data has shown that the disparity culminated during the Clinton presidency. Ironically, African Americans still see him as the first "black" president even though he has waged war on the poor at the inception of his administration. The secondary outcome of this disparity is the slow and gradual erosion of the middle class, and the products will be made to cater to the minor rich and majority poor. This was not the case in the 40s-60s with a strong middle class, which is why even Sheaffer's "low-end" products without the white dots sport a 14k nib and write just as nice as their gold-filled crest models. Now, in 2009, you can spend $100 and won't be able to afford a new pen with a solid 14k nib in the store, how most items were purchased back then before the advent of the internet.