Are Cross Pens still Made in the USA?

[rsx]

  Deirdre said:

  JEBennett said:

Note that the Lamy Studio Palladium finish is a gold nib for ~$135 retail. And the venerable Lamy 2000 is merely $160.

Right, I didn't go through all the lines, just the ones the OP mentioned. Also, the Vanishing Point's list price is somewhere around there.

 

Right.

So I guess that's really my point. Why are quality, competitive pens from Lamy and Pilot made in Germany and Japan, countrires not known for low cost production, while virtually none are produced in the US. Even Cross, a venerable US pen company, has abandoned production in the US.

Why can't anyone make pens here? Surely it is not just production costs.

[Deirdre]

Because in the US, we have a culture of buying the cheapest suitable item, where Europe and Japan have a culture of buying fewer, well-made goods, and a respect that that costs money.

[ildbig]

 

I've wondered this myself. People see "Made in France," and they see it as a luxury good. They are willing to pay more for the Made in France label than "Made in China." People see "Made in USA," and they don't care; they are not willing to pay a premium.

 

I can't attribute this point to American taste for cheap goods. American fountain pens were exported -- especially Sheaffer. If foreigners value quality and hence "Made in France," why do they not value "Made in USA"? Even Americans are willing to pay a premium for the "Made in France" over "Made in China." But not for "Made in USA." This puzzles me.

 

 

  rsx said:

  Deirdre said:

  JEBennett said:

Note that the Lamy Studio Palladium finish is a gold nib for ~$135 retail. And the venerable Lamy 2000 is merely $160.

Right, I didn't go through all the lines, just the ones the OP mentioned. Also, the Vanishing Point's list price is somewhere around there.

 

Right.

So I guess that's really my point. Why are quality, competitive pens from Lamy and Pilot made in Germany and Japan, countrires not known for low cost production, while virtually none are produced in the US. Even Cross, a venerable US pen company, has abandoned production in the US.

Why can't anyone make pens here? Surely it is not just production costs.

 

[Deirdre]

  ildbig said:

I've wondered this myself. People see "Made in France," and they see it as a luxury good. They are willing to pay more for the Made in France label than "Made in China." People see "Made in USA," and they don't care; they are not willing to pay a premium.

 

I can't attribute this point to American taste for cheap goods. American fountain pens were exported -- especially Sheaffer. If foreigners value quality and hence "Made in France," why do they not value "Made in USA"? Even Americans are willing to pay a premium for the "Made in France" over "Made in China." But not for "Made in USA." This puzzles me.

Our taste for cheap goods will eventually be our undoing, I think.

 

I am willing to pay more for something made, all or in part, in the US. For one thing, it's more ecologically sound to have things produced as close as possible to the point of purchase and use.

[Pepin]

  ildbig said:

I've wondered this myself. People see "Made in France," and they see it as a luxury good. They are willing to pay more for the Made in France label than "Made in China." People see "Made in USA," and they don't care; they are not willing to pay a premium.

 

I can't attribute this point to American taste for cheap goods. American fountain pens were exported -- especially Sheaffer. If foreigners value quality and hence "Made in France," why do they not value "Made in USA"? Even Americans are willing to pay a premium for the "Made in France" over "Made in China." But not for "Made in USA." This puzzles me.

 

 

  rsx said:

  Deirdre said:

  JEBennett said:

Note that the Lamy Studio Palladium finish is a gold nib for ~$135 retail. And the venerable Lamy 2000 is merely $160.

Right, I didn't go through all the lines, just the ones the OP mentioned. Also, the Vanishing Point's list price is somewhere around there.

 

Right.

So I guess that's really my point. Why are quality, competitive pens from Lamy and Pilot made in Germany and Japan, countrires not known for low cost production, while virtually none are produced in the US. Even Cross, a venerable US pen company, has abandoned production in the US.

Why can't anyone make pens here? Surely it is not just production costs.

 

The Euros (Italians, French and English) have had a history of producing quality goods. Germany and Japan made products did not enter the US market in sizeable numbers until post WW2, when the dollar was strong and domestic American made products out-compete them in both quality and value. However, these two countries have improved their quality (which was decent to begin with) over the years even for cheaper goods so the value of German and Japanese products have remained high. The other Euro countries stayed the same in terms of quality control and pricing but have catered more to the "luxury" market for their pricing. On the other hand, American made products, esp. in the arts and crafts of custom made goods and similar trades, have seen a steady decline in quality in some areas. The USA is now moving towards a technology based, service-based, economy with fewer manufacturing plants. For most people, American made goods no longer mean "value" so they steer towards luxury brands for quality and Chinese made brands for price.

 

As Deidre had said, American culture is moving towards a "use today" and "dispose tomorrow" culture and no one is paying slightly higher for quality. This is also because the country is getting poorer, at a faster rate than other powers. When everything becomes more and more expensive, Chinese goods as crappy as they are have high value. And for some people, as Stalin put it, "quantity is in itself quality."

 

[ildbig]

 

Again, this is all *perception* that American luxury goods are not worth it -- *perception* that American-made goods are decreasing in quality. I don't know of American-made arts and crafts and luxury crafts that have objectively decreased in quality -- at least more so than foreign-made such goods. Even the "foreign car" example doesn't work, because so many Toyotas, Hondas, and BMWs are made in the USA. Most people rate their quality as very high, and that fact contradicts evidence that American-made products are slipping in quality. It all seems to be perception. I'm baffled as to that perception, because it doesn't seem to be based on any objective criteria.

 

Again, because pens are routinely exported from their source countries, it is not a matter of Americans becoming poor. If Europeans indeed are richer than Americans, then they could afford to buy American made luxury products, if they valued them. Moreover, anyone (anywhere in the world) buying an expensive non-USA pen could buy a USA made pen, if they perceived the quality to be there. They don't value them, so they don't buy them. Again, I don't see it as a function of objective quality (especially if, e.g., Cross pens are as good as so many believe); I see it as pure perception.

 

 

  Pepin said:

  ildbig said:

I've wondered this myself. People see "Made in France," and they see it as a luxury good. They are willing to pay more for the Made in France label than "Made in China." People see "Made in USA," and they don't care; they are not willing to pay a premium.

 

I can't attribute this point to American taste for cheap goods. American fountain pens were exported -- especially Sheaffer. If foreigners value quality and hence "Made in France," why do they not value "Made in USA"? Even Americans are willing to pay a premium for the "Made in France" over "Made in China." But not for "Made in USA." This puzzles me.

 

 

  rsx said:

  Deirdre said:

  JEBennett said:

Note that the Lamy Studio Palladium finish is a gold nib for ~$135 retail. And the venerable Lamy 2000 is merely $160.

Right, I didn't go through all the lines, just the ones the OP mentioned. Also, the Vanishing Point's list price is somewhere around there.

 

Right.

So I guess that's really my point. Why are quality, competitive pens from Lamy and Pilot made in Germany and Japan, countrires not known for low cost production, while virtually none are produced in the US. Even Cross, a venerable US pen company, has abandoned production in the US.

Why can't anyone make pens here? Surely it is not just production costs.

 

The Euros (Italians, French and English) have had a history of producing quality goods. Germany and Japan made products did not enter the US market in sizeable numbers until post WW2, when the dollar was strong and domestic American made products out-compete them in both quality and value. However, these two countries have improved their quality (which was decent to begin with) over the years even for cheaper goods so the value of German and Japanese products have remained high. The other Euro countries stayed the same in terms of quality control and pricing but have catered more to the "luxury" market for their pricing. On the other hand, American made products, esp. in the arts and crafts of custom made goods and similar trades, have seen a steady decline in quality in some areas. The USA is now moving towards a technology based, service-based, economy with fewer manufacturing plants. For most people, American made goods no longer mean "value" so they steer towards luxury brands for quality and Chinese made brands for price.

 

As Deidre had said, American culture is moving towards a "use today" and "dispose tomorrow" culture and no one is paying slightly higher for quality. This is also because the country is getting poorer, at a faster rate than other powers. When everything becomes more and more expensive, Chinese goods as crappy as they are have high value. And for some people, as Stalin put it, "quantity is in itself quality."

 

[ildbig]

 

I read somewhere (in the Undercover Economist by Tim Harford, I think) that pollution per DVD player to bring the DVD player from China to the US is something like 1% as large as the pollution to bring the DVD player from Best Buy to one's home a couple miles away. (Because thousands of DVD players are brought via ocean -- the most efficient means of transport-- and only 1 DVD player is brought home.) I think transportation is so efficient now days, that there is little ecological benefit to having things manufactured close to home. So, if a large factory is far away but more efficient, it may be better for the environment than a less efficient but nearby factory. I think the laxness of pollution control is more of an issue.

 

  Deirdre said:

  ildbig said:

I've wondered this myself. People see "Made in France," and they see it as a luxury good. They are willing to pay more for the Made in France label than "Made in China." People see "Made in USA," and they don't care; they are not willing to pay a premium.

 

I can't attribute this point to American taste for cheap goods. American fountain pens were exported -- especially Sheaffer. If foreigners value quality and hence "Made in France," why do they not value "Made in USA"? Even Americans are willing to pay a premium for the "Made in France" over "Made in China." But not for "Made in USA." This puzzles me.

Our taste for cheap goods will eventually be our undoing, I think.

 

I am willing to pay more for something made, all or in part, in the US. For one thing, it's more ecologically sound to have things produced as close as possible to the point of purchase and use.

 

[LDB415]

  Waterman said:

That is a shame but 50 years from now made in China will be a good thing, kinda like made in Japan back in the 50's.

 

It will never be a good thing to an American, at least not to a proper American.

[PenHero]

  Pepin said:

When everything becomes more and more expensive, Chinese goods as crappy as they are have high value. And for some people, as Stalin put it, "quantity is in itself quality."

 

If you want to say that the new Cross pens made in China are not as good as the ones made in USA, that's fair, make your case, but blanket statements about Chinese made products, such as this one are pure prejudice.

 

Replace "Chinese" with "African American" and you can see how it sounds.

 

Cheers,

 

Jim Mamoulides

www.PenHero.com

[Ray]

Chinese manufacture is able to turn out whatever level of quality is required. If the people outsourcing to China from the US or Europe specifiy a high level of quality, they won't save as much money on the outsourcing, so few bother. Ultimately, this gives Chinese manufacturing an unwarranted bad name when it's actually the Western clients who are driving down quality.

 

Ray

[richardandtracy]

I currently have two Chinese made mopeds.

 

One is a well known Japanese brand. It is indistiguishable in quality from the bikes made in Japan.

The other is a Chinese Brand. That bike has broken down, without fail, every 4 weeks since last August.

 

Both bikes have done roughly the same 3300 miles.

 

My conclusion about Chinese manufacturing: They can be as good as anyone else if they maintain a good quality regime.

 

Something smilar occurred in the UK with Rover 200's & Honda Civic's in the mid 1990's. Both cars were made on the same production line in Cowley (I think) using mostly the same parts. According to the Consumer magazine 'Which?' the Rovers were unreliable with up to 40% breaking down in the first year of ownership, while the Honda Civic had 0% breakdowns in the first year. That's just down to the QA system applied - in this case it was applied to the same production line...

 

Regards,

 

Richard.

 

[PenHero]

All,

 

I've decided to close this topic as it is drifting away from the original question and becoming a discussion of Chinese manufacturing quality.

 

If you want to discuss that, you are welcome to start a topic in the Chatter forum.

 

You can also start a topic specific to Cross, if that is what people want to discuss.

 

Cheers,

 

Jim Mamoulides

www.PenHero.com