intertine smoothing tips?

[Pete]

Hi,

 

Ive read all the articles and posts about nib smoothing, and Ive pretty much got it down, except for getting the intertine spaces smooth. I cant seem to get this right; I usually end up just wearing away intertine material, but Im not able to get a nice smooth baby bottom effect at all. Ive tried all kinds of stuff-- putting the sheets in the slit and running the nib down the length of the finest micromesh sheet at an angle to catch the corners, sort of rubbing the sheets around the interior space and slit while its stretched around the problem areas, all kinds of variations of that theme, but very poor results.

 

The only thing I found that seems to work for me is to put a really sharp crease in a micromesh sheet and kind of run that down the nib slit, without actually penetrating the slit (the sheet would be too wide), but Id like to know if anybody has any tricks they use that I might have missed or tricks that just haven't been posted.

 

Also, just as a matter of curiosity, does anyone have an opinion on where the brown paper bags would be on an abrasive scale?

 

 

Thanks

[Gerry]

While I usually find that wrapping a smoothing film around the inside corner (while having it between the tines) works, there is another way. You can cant the nib to a fairly extreme angle - say 45 degrees to the normal, and then, using firm pressure, form figure 8's on the finest abrasive sheet you have.

 

Check frequently.

 

This will bring the outside corner of the lower tine and the inside corner of the higher tine into contact with the film. Repeating at different vertical angles will gradually round that one inside edge.

 

Repeating with the opposite rotation will do the other inside corner.

 

Check frequently.

 

Regards,

 

Gerry

[Pete]

Ill definitely give that a try, thanks.

[OldGriz]

Im not able to get a nice smooth baby bottom effect at all.

Thanks

 

Excuse me, but why are you trying to get a baby bottom????

That is one of the problems with some nibs... baby bottom... you don't want a baby bottom effect...

 

Here is Richard's definition of baby bottom

" A condition in which the edges of the nib slit are too rounded where the slit meets the surface of the writing pad, so named for the resemblance of the nib’s tip to the profile of a baby’s posterior (see illustration to right). A nib with baby’s bottom will usually be remarkably smooth, but capillary action will hold the ink too far away from the paper instead of drawing it toward the paper as intended, and the nib will have trouble starting"

 

 

Edited January 3, 2008 by OldGriz

[OnPoint]

If you didn't, you may also want to read Wim's article. I remember it has something on inter-tine work.

Edited January 3, 2008 by OnPoint

[wimg]

If you didn't, you may also want to read Wim's article. I remember it has something on inter-tine work.

Thanks for the reference.

 

To this day I still insert the finest mylar (12000 grit) between the tines and alternate between the two tine halfs by reversing the mylar, to take the sharpest edge off the bottom inner tine edges, both for getting the standard nib side to work well smoothly, as for the top side of the nib to work well. Just did another one yesterday, after converting a sharp, single-sided medium italic nib into a smooth, cursive medium sized italic the normal way, and smooth, fine cursive italic the other way . Or an itali-italic if you like .

 

As OldGriz indicates, you don't want to create a proper baby bottom, you only want to smooth the sharp edges. A baby bottom will make your pen stop writing .

 

Warm regards, Wim

[Pete]

If you didn't, you may also want to read Wim's article. I remember it has something on inter-tine work.

Thanks for the reference.

 

To this day I still insert the finest mylar (12000 grit) between the tines and alternate between the two tine halfs by reversing the mylar, to take the sharpest edge off the bottom inner tine edges, both for getting the standard nib side to work well smoothly, as for the top side of the nib to work well. Just did another one yesterday, after converting a sharp, single-sided medium italic nib into a smooth, cursive medium sized italic the normal way, and smooth, fine cursive italic the other way . Or an itali-italic if you like .

 

As OldGriz indicates, you don't want to create a proper baby bottom, you only want to smooth the sharp edges. A baby bottom will make your pen stop writing .

 

Warm regards, Wim

 

Actually, your article was the most helpful one that I had read, thanks for writing it.

 

I'm not looking for an exaggerated baby bottom, just one similar to whats pictured in your article, where the intertine space has a slight rounding to it, but not enough to hold the ink away from the paper.

 

What kind of motion do you use? As I posted, when Ive tried to get the areas rounded I just end up eating up intertine material and not getting any rounding, no matter what motion I use. I was able to get mylar between the tines to round out a scratchy Esterbrook nicely, but on Parker 51 nibs Ive been having issues with that technique. Creasing the sheets and running them down the slit seems to work fairly well for me so far, but Id prefer to be able to smooth them the way you mention as well.

 

Thanks for the replies

 

 

Edited to remove double typed word

Edited January 4, 2008 by Pete

[wimg]

Actually, your article was the most helpful one that I had read, thanks for writing it.

 

I'm not looking for an exaggerated baby bottom, just one similar to whats pictured in your article, where the intertine space has a slight rounding to it, but not enough to hold the ink away from the paper.

 

What kind of motion do you use? As I posted, when Ive tried to get the areas rounded I just end up eating up intertine material and not getting any rounding, no matter what motion I use. I was able to get mylar between the tines to round out a scratchy Esterbrook nicely, but on Parker 51 nibs Ive been having issues with that technique. Creasing the sheets and running them down the slit seems to work fairly well for me so far, but Id prefer to be able to smooth them the way you mention as well.

 

Thanks for the replies

 

 

Edited to remove double typed word

Do note that the picture in my article exaggerates the effect a little, due to the fact that those "photographs" of the nib actually were scans of the pen placed in a holder on top of a scanner . I didn't have a digital camera myself at the time, hence the workaround.

 

Anyway, what I do, is cut a strip of mylar, from the 12000 grit, or 0.1 micron variety, about 1.5 to 2 inches wide, the length of the sheet, using a sharp paper cutting device to get a straight edge, so that I have straight edges on all sides of the strip.

 

Next I insert the strip between the tines, and angle it a little towards the side I want to smooth, in the plane of the long pen axis, so that the flat side of the strip and the pen make an angle of let's say, 70 to 80 degrees or so. Now I move the pen down along the strip, down being the side with the smallest angle, IOW the 70-80 degree angle, while moving the pen towards the side of the polishing material on the mylar strip. This instead of bending the mylar over the tine; I found this is actually easier to do, and it improves the smoothness of the move. I do this probably twice, over about 2/3 to 7/8 of the length of the strip.

 

Next I try the pen to see if that side is ok. Essentially, draw a line from left to right if it is the left tine I just did this way, or from right to left for the other. I draw lines to both sides anyway, to be able to compare. Oh, I always have an ink filled pen when I do this .

 

Then I repeat the procedure for the other tine.

 

Normally 1 to 3 of these tries fixes the inner tine slit, if it is required to do anything in the first place. You have to make sure, however, that the outer edges of the tipping and the rest of the tipping is smooth first, otherwise you won't notice a difference. Smoothing the tines' slit side is always the last thing you have to do, in the process of smoothing a nib.

 

Do note that if the inner tine edges are sharp, it will pull off the polishing coat from the mylar backing. In that case, you probably need more passes with much less pressure. That is what I do anyway.

 

Also, be careful if and when the nib gets stuck. If you move too fast, or continue pulling in the same direction, you may damage the nib. It actually happened to me once; the tipping on one of the tines came off. I assume it wasn't soldered on very well, but it did require a new nib . It wasn't an expensive one, but even so, it was a pain, as it meant an extra two week wait before I could give the pen back to the owner.

 

So, work slowly, carefully, deliberately and smoothly is my advice .

 

HTH, warm regards, Wim

[omasfan]

I agree that Wim's article is the best that I've read on this topic. Nicely done, Wim!

[wimg]

I agree that Wim's article is the best that I've read on this topic. Nicely done, Wim!

Thank you! And Pete, too, obviously!

 

Originally, it appeared on PenTrace, before FPN existed . Part two has been in the making ever since, just that this admin lark is taking up so much time . That and another bunch of projects .

 

One day, one day .

 

Warm regards, Wim

[psfred]

I usually just cross the nib tips and very carefully wipe the exposed edge down my 4000 grit waterstone. You only need to remove the sharp edge so it won't drag, it's neither necessary nor particularly desired to get a visibly round edge.

 

Peter

Edited January 5, 2008 by psfred

[Pete]

Ill try cutting the sheets next time I try the mesh between the tines, I have tried using the motion you describe, Wim, but that just doesn't do the trick for me for some reason. Ill figure what I'm doing wrong eventually, I'm just sick of ending up with the italics I ground out much more narrow then they should be.

 

I think that the Peters idea is a good one. Its one of those really obvious things that you think that you should have though of yourself, but you didn't, so you're not quite a clever as you thought (kind of like the cat flap --Douglas Adams). Ill definitely put that one to use, that sounds like exactly the sort of thing I was looking for.

 

Thanks for the replies, all.

[wimg]

Ill try cutting the sheets next time I try the mesh between the tines, I have tried using the motion you describe, Wim, but that just doesn't do the trick for me for some reason. Ill figure what I'm doing wrong eventually, I'm just sick of ending up with the italics I ground out much more narrow then they should be.

Wait a sec; I don't use mesh (Micromesh?) for rounding the inner tine edges. I use thin mylar, with an Al-oxide coating as polishing compound. I don't cut up my Micromesh only the thin mylar.

 

It is a little hard to get those inner tine edges right, though.

I think that the Peters idea is a good one. Its one of those really obvious things that you think that you should have though of yourself, but you didn't, so you're not quite a clever as you thought (kind of like the cat flap --Douglas Adams). Ill definitely put that one to use, that sounds like exactly the sort of thing I was looking for.

 

Thanks for the replies, all.

Personally, I wouldn't like to try Peter's suggestion myself. There is a chance you bend the tines too far, making the new shape a permanent one. It only takes fairly little to do so, especially at the pressures required.

 

Warm regards, Wim

[Pete]

Yeah, I use mylar for this, I misspoke, sorry.

 

What I'm thinking is bringing just enough pressure on each side so that they just protrude enough so that the inner edge can be caught with the mylar, so I guess that makes it kind of similar to Gerry's method as well, except that I'd be doing it with the nib and sheet in my hands. I think that a bit of protrusion along with a mylar sheet should be enough for me to catch the inner edge and get rid of any sharpness. I wasn't planning on fully crossing the tines.

 

I agree that Peter's method seems a bit riskier, but the results Ive been getting with running the mylar through the slit have been more damaging than I see the potential risk of this method, as long as I'm careful with it.

 

I do plan to practice it on a cheap orphaned nib first. I learned that lesson the hard way, after having to do this one too may times.

Edited January 7, 2008 by Pete

[Tweel]

Not a suggestion for technique, but an example of what one might want to aim for. The following photomicrographs are from an ad for Waterman's Patrician and Lady Patrician in the June 1932 National Geographic. Note that although "Other Make No. 2" is malformed as stated, both it and the Waterman nib have the same sort of edge smoothing -- a pretty straight 45 degree chamfer rather than a "baby bottom" curve. It's also very slight.

 

-- Brian

 

(Sorry about the grainy halftone -- each pic is about 1-1/4 by 1-1/16 inch!)

 

[wimg]

Not a suggestion for technique, but an example of what one might want to aim for. The following photomicrographs are from an ad for Waterman's Patrician and Lady Patrician in the June 1932 National Geographic. Note that although "Other Make No. 2" is malformed as stated, both it and the Waterman nib have the same sort of edge smoothing -- a pretty straight 45 degree chamfer rather than a "baby bottom" curve. It's also very slight.

 

-- Brian

 

(Sorry about the grainy halftone -- each pic is about 1-1/4 by 1-1/16 inch!)

 

Hi Brian,

 

Thanks for sharing this! Do note that where the nib is in contact with the paper, slit side that is, it is rounded, the chamfer actually starts a little down (or up ) from the minute rounded part.

 

This, BTW, is the type of shape I try to achieve with the technique of putting mylar between the two tines.

 

Warm regards, Wim

[Pete]

Yeah, thanks for the pics.

 

What Ive been doing is grinding some italics and I've used a "Binderized" italic nib as a standard of comparison, looking at them with a 30x pocket microscope. Theres a definite curve from the intertine areas of his nib, which is what I was aiming to imitate. Just to be clear, its a very good nib. I wouldn't try to imitate a I nib I thought was lousy.

[mmb993]

Also, just as a matter of curiosity, does anyone have an opinion on where the brown paper bags would be on an abrasive scale?

 

 

Thanks

 

This has been a very informative topic as I'm getting ready to start messing around with nibs. Like going a step further than ammonia baths and ultrasonic cleaning. However no one has addressed the question of the brown paper bag. Now there is a tool I have in good supply!

 

Any comments? How do we use it or should we use it at all?

 

Thanks,

 

Mario

 

[wimg]

This has been a very informative topic as I'm getting ready to start messing around with nibs. Like going a step further than ammonia baths and ultrasonic cleaning. However no one has addressed the question of the brown paper bag. Now there is a tool I have in good supply!

 

Any comments? How do we use it or should we use it at all?

 

Thanks,

 

Mario

Some people swear by it, some people swear at it.

 

Personally, I prefer to have repeatable results, which is why I use mylar. Yes, it is more "expensive", but at least you have a tool made for the job.

 

To repair a small hole in a rubber tyre, you can either use the proper tools, or you can use a heated piece of metal. What would you prefer to do? Which will give you the best results?

 

That is what it is about, IMO. Emergency solutions vs the proper way to do it.

 

Warm regards, Wim

[Gerry]

I'm with Wim here. We've heard of many novel solutions - from copper pennies, through brown paper bags, to porcelain. All provide unique points of view, but none really provide repeatability, predictability or design for purpose close to the more formal abrasives we can obtain through professional channels.

 

I'd agree with looking for alternatives if the costs were prohibitive like that of diamond paste abrasives perhaps (something I intend to give a try), but generally the recommended solutions are pretty inexpensive and readily available...

 

Why not go the proven route?

 

Regards,

 

Gerry