Oblique nibs: left vs. right

[alexanderino]

Greetings, fellow pen lovers. A few minutes ago, I won this Lamy 2000 Oblique Broad fountain pen.

 

Its OB nib descends from right to left. I believe this is known as a left oblique nib, as Pendemonium puts it:

 

  Quote

Straight Left Oblique - nib end ground to approximate 30 degree left angle with reduced iridium, corners are left sharp for those of you preferring a very crisp line. (Look down at your left foot and see the outline of your toes! A Left Oblique nib angles the same way.) Many right handed writers prefer Left Oblique nibs.

However, other articles and discussion on the topic seem to state the opposite — that left-footed nibs are for left-handed writers. Earlier, I could visualise a left oblique in my right hand with the nib facing straight north, but now I’m not so sure!

 

I need your help

[donwinn]

I tested a 30 degree left oblique at the Dallas Pen Show in September, and it was a lot of fun. Limited usefulness to me, so I did not buy it, but I could see using it on a limited basis. Great for calligraphy, and provides good line variation, even if it isn't flexy (the one I tried wasn't flexy anyway).

 

The left oblique is suitable for a right hander. At least for me, and I am so right handed I have difficulty unscrewing the left side catch on the video cable which connects the laptop to the projector.

 

Donnie

[alexanderino]

Ah, thanks for confirming that I'm glad I do not have to train my left hand [tantalising as it may be ].

 

Cheers for the quick response, donwinn

[RayMan]

I believe it depends on whether, and which way, you rotate your pen, rather than whether you are right or left-handed. For example, a left-handed person who rotates their pen to the left could use a "left foot" oblique. By contrast, a "right foot" oblique would not be suitable for a left-handed person who rotates their pen to the left.

[KCat]

Mostly depends on if you rotate your pen while writing. I think most right handers rotate the nib slightly counterclockwise therefore a left-footed oblique is appropriate. I've never quite understood how a right hander could use a right-footed oblique without having what I consider an abnormal CW rotation. I wonder if the nibmeisters keep track of the number of folks who are right-handed that rotate CW?

 

For left-handers, obliquity most certainly would depend on whether you rotate and if you are an underwriter or overwriter. I've made one right-footed oblique for a left-hander and tested it with both hands though I'm not ambidextrous. It was an interesting process. All my stubs are slightly left-footed oblique.

 

I don't care for 30-degree obliques. The angle is just too much unless it's for a specific purpose. For daily writing 15-degrees is comfortable and about 8-degrees feels entirely natural such that all I notice is the line variation of the stub and a very pleasing feedback.

 

If you have a particularly high angle of attack an oblique can be uncomfortable.

[Stephen-I-am]

I have several left-foot oblique nibs ground by Richard. I like a 15 degree angle -- I just rotate the pen a little bit, and the thin stroke of the stub is lined up with the diagonol, making the joins between letters finer than horizontal or vertical strokes.

 

A second benefit is on a Pilot vanishing point, where a 15 degree oblique nib lets you place your finger on the side of the clip and have the nib perfectly aligned.

 

Stephen

[alexanderino]

  RayMan said:

I believe it depends on whether, and which way, you rotate your pen, rather than whether you are right or left-handed. For example, a left-handed person who rotates their pen to the left could use a "left foot" oblique. By contrast, a "right foot" oblique would not be suitable for a left-handed person who rotates their pen to the left.

You have identified how my confusion began. Thanks!

 

  KCat said:

I don't care for 30-degree obliques. The angle is just too much unless it's for a specific purpose. For daily writing 15-degrees is comfortable and about 8-degrees feels entirely natural such that all I notice is the line variation of the stub and a very pleasing feedback.

 

If you have a particularly high angle of attack an oblique can be uncomfortable.

Thankfully, the Lamy appears to be a 15° oblique. My angle of attack is quite low [just under 45° in typical use], so it should be fun

 

  Stephen-I-am said:

I like a 15 degree angle -- I just rotate the pen a little bit, and the thin stroke of the stub is lined up with the diagonol, making the joins between letters finer than horizontal or vertical strokes.

Accentuating the difference between thin and thick strokes [while pointing the nib north] is also the reason why I decided to get it I insist on aligning the clip centre with the nib slit, but the rotation means compromising on the final step — holding it.

 

I have a brand-new Lamy 2000 with a medium nib. It is such a silky writer, and its understated looks whisper quality of the highest calibre. Yes, it has won me over.

 

Cannot wait to own this piece of history from the 1970s

[WendyNC]

Okay, I've read this thread and now I need Obliques for Dummies since I'm still getting confused about which is right oblique and which is left oblique.

 

I'm a right-handed underwriter, holding the paper at the "Palmer Method" angle, so I'm asking from that point of reference.

 

The pen is posted with the clip aligned with the center-point of the nib. In order to get the ink to flow correctly, I must turn the pen so that clip is now much closer to my thumb. Is this a right oblique or a left oblique?

 

Thanks!

[sumgaikid]

  WendyNC said:

Okay, I've read this thread and now I need Obliques for Dummies since I'm still getting confused about which is right oblique and which is left oblique.

 

I'm a right-handed underwriter, holding the paper at the "Palmer Method" angle, so I'm asking from that point of reference.

 

The pen is posted with the clip aligned with the center-point of the nib. In order to get the ink to flow correctly, I must turn the pen so that clip is now much closer to my thumb. Is this a right oblique or a left oblique?

 

Thanks!

 

Wendy,

 

The best way I've found to describe oblique nibs is that the tip of the nib rises in angle from the

bottom to the top. Therefore,a left-hand oblique would rise in angle from the bottom tip of the left

tine to the top tip of the right tine. The opposite is true for the right-hand oblique. It rises from the

bottom of the right tine to the top of the left tine. Typically,right-handers use left-hand oblique nibs

and left-handers use right-hand oblique nibs.

 

John

 

[Rob G]

I use a reverse ("right foot") oblique, but only with the Pilot VP, because the clip changes the way I hold the pen -- my hand winds up leaning to the right. This was the only way I could maintain full contact with the page. A straight italic dug in on the right side, and did not touch on the left.

[Randal6393]

Not strictly true. Digging through my old manuals, especially Graily Hewitt's Lettering and Edward Johnston's Writing and Illuminating and Lettering, reminded me that an oblique nib was cut on a quill so that the pen would present a preferred set of strokes on the page. If the writer was using a cursive hand that required a 30 to 45 degree angle of pen to the horizontal (think italic, irish, semi-formal hands, gothic and German hands), a pen was cut with no obliqueness. The most comfortable way to hold the pen in the right hand resulted in the tip producing a 45 degree angle naturally.

 

Now, to write a formal hand that had a pen angle of 5 to 10 degrees (a "flat-pen" hand), the pen needed to be rotated so that the tip was almost horizontal instead of halfway between horizontal and vertical. This resulted in an uncomfortable position of the hand and the nib of the pen interferring with the view of what was being written. If the pen was cut at an oblique angle (a right-foot oblique), the writer could hold the pen comfortably and still write a flat-pen hand.

 

On the other hand, many right-handed writers preferred to cut their pens with a bit of left-foot obliqueness so that the pen was held in a way that was comfortable for them. A writer that preferred a left-foot oblique might be writing either a cursive or flat-pen formal hand, he just preferred to hold the pen differently than other writers did. This is similar, to my mind, to the preference for straight or oblique penholders when writing Copperplate or Spenserian, etc.

 

I will not speak to how left-handed writers cut their nibs as I am not left-handed nor do I know any scribes that use quill pens and are left-handed.

 

Now to fountain pens. While it is easy, in fact even almost required, to cut one's own quills for pens, most of us do not grind our own tips for fountain pens. And a fountain pen will last for thousands of pages of writing where a quill pen may get two or three pages at most before requiring a recut. So what it starts with is likely what it will retain for its life. If a writer writes with an italic tip and finds a standard nib uncomfortable, it may be practical to try an oblique nib. Especially if the script chosen is a formal flat-pen script.

 

The bottom line is to use a pen that YOU like to write the way you prefer. As usual, a bit of time spent in practice and trying out various pens and techniques may be required to figure out what your particular preference is. Have fun,

[Randal6393]

  Rob G said:

I use a reverse ("right foot") oblique, but only with the Pilot VP, because the clip changes the way I hold the pen -- my hand winds up leaning to the right. This was the only way I could maintain full contact with the page. A straight italic dug in on the right side, and did not touch on the left.

 

Perfect example of what I was talking about! Write the way you prefer, adapt the pen to your writing.

[WendyNC]

  Randal6393 said:

The bottom line is to use a pen that YOU like to write the way you prefer. As usual, a bit of time spent in practice and trying out various pens and techniques may be required to figure out what your particular preference is. Have fun,

 

Sigh. I'm just trying to figure out what the nib is on this recently acquired pen, since it requires me to turn the pen the opposite way to which I'm accustomed. The real problem is probably that I just don't know enough about all this to understand properly.

Edited March 1, 2009 by WendyNC

[hari317]

  alexanderino said:

I need your help

 

Hi, lots of useful information in the posts above. However I am right handed and tend to rotate my pen clockwise so a Right foot oblique will be more suitable for me. However this means that I am pushing the nib across the paper rather than pulling it. The reason people say a Left oblique is suitable for Right handed people is due to the pullling motion achieved which makes for an optimum writing experience.

 

Best,

Hari

 

[KenS]

Hi, My name is Ken, and I'm right handed. If I use an oblique nib it's a right foot oblique. The simple reason is that my hand / arm tends to rotate to the right, so I don't rotate the pen, the natural set of my arm does it for me. Over the past couple of years I have worked on doing away with the rotation of my arm, and now I can use a straight cut italic nib if I work at it. So there you have it; there is no set rule for who uses a LF nib, and who uses a RF nib.

Ken

[WendyNC]

Aha! I found my reply, about halfway down under Nib I: The Basics, linked from this page. I had found this page before I started working with the pen in question, but it didn't mean anything then except as a curiosity. I think that the PIQ is not only a left-footed oblique, but a fairly steep one, as I have to do what seems to me to be quite a bit of rotation with it to get it to perform.

 

Since I worked very hard to teach myself to hold the nib straight to the paper, this rotation just looks horribly wrong to me in my hand. I have to admit, though, that it does produce a nice-looking result, although I'm still having trouble keeping my grip loose enough.

 

Thanks for your patience while I sorted this out.

Edited March 1, 2009 by WendyNC

[tnaskar]

I am a right-handed person. I use both left and right oblique and find no difficulties writing with them. I think left and right for different type of line variation. Here is my sample, the arrow indicates the direction of strokes.

[Bo Bo Olson]

I have some 15 left foot Obliques and one right foot. That one is some what odd to me in I have to turn the nib to where I can't see some/most of the nib. I do not cant my nib, unless it is an oblique nib.

 

IMO with modern oblique nibs....they are made for folks with Left Eye dominance, who therefore cant their nibs. They have little to no line variation. As 'noobie' I bought a 18 K nail Lamy Persona OB....and was so so disappointing. There was no line variation at all. It stayed in the box until made CI.

 

Later I had a 'true' regular flex...with next to no line variation a 200's nib I trans-mailed. So much for Plan B.So one can not expect much to any line variations with any modern Pelikan nib....outside a semi-flex 1000's nib.

 

Back in B&W TV school days there would always be one or two in every class who canted their nibs.They were noticeable, in why did they hold their pens so crooked?

 

It wasn't until I still twisting my wife's arm to get her to use a fountain pen instead of a ball point, I noticed how extreme left she tilted the nib almost totally facing the left....and being German knew 'better' in she had to use a fountain pen in school.

My wife is a very good shot. She has to crawl all over a rifle stock to get the wrong eye in place, same with a pistol. She is strongly left eye dominate. I am right eye dominate, like most right handers.

 

In a modern oblique in nail, semi-nail and old 'true' regular flex has so very little pattern; it's only good for folks with left eye dominance who automatically cant their pens. Many are made with the American Bump under instead of it being a stub. If you have a modern Oblique and you are unsatisfied with the pattern, get it stubbed. That might make it work....might. I don't have any so can't say for sure. It is though an idea. Fresh one at that too.

 

The great obliques are those German '50-60's pens with semi-flex or maxi-semi-flex. You have a stubbish nib, the semi-flex and the oblique, which gives you a great pattern. 30 degree gives more pattern than 15 and I'd not waste any money on a 5-8 degree one.

My first oblique was my first semi-flex nib, a Pelikan 140 OB. .

An OB from that era is narrower than the modern fat blobby B, more like a 'modern fat' M. (Might be closer to a Japanese It is a writing nib, not a signature nib. The width of the B makes it easier to put on the paper on the sweet spot than a OM or OF. OM and OF is not hard to learn really, but you do have to learn, where with a OB you can get away with being a bit sloppy.

 

I have a mix of 15 semi&maxi-semi-flex oblique nibbed pens. It's pure luck if one of those pens are semi-flex or maxi-semi-flex be that normal or oblique. The same with the @ 15 or 30 degree grinds.

Do to pure luck I have in both 15 & 30 degree grinds in OBB, OB, OM and OF....

 

I really don't see OEF being wide enough to make much of a pattern....and can not ever think of that narrow nib as a 30 degree grind. They made them. I had bought a Geha 790 with a OEF marked pen body...it wasn't the nib; but it was a wonderful maxi-semi-flex in F, so I kept the pen. Geha is a screw out nib, like Pelikan and later Osmia's. It was later than I thought OEF might be too narrow to have a nice pattern for old eyes.

 

All the German pens with some flex of the time are stubbish with the bare minimum in tipping. They work fine, just don't think some shade tree mechanic tried to stub them and failed. That is the way the nib was made at the factory. Right now I have a gray stripped bodied Geha 790 with maxi-semi-flex 30 grind inked with Herbin Lie de The.

 

I never had much problem if it was 15 or 30 degrees but in that I post, I hold to more of a 40 degree angle at the start of the web of my thumb than higher at 45 degrees just after the big index knuckle.....and I can see major problems to any one holding at or before the big knuckle...in to have the tip of the nib on the paper the pen would be leaning over like a drunken sailor.

 

We use to have long threads where folks had problems with their obliques not doing anything. Well many tried to make them do things...what exactly I don't know, twisting hands, arms, hanging from the chandeliers. My guess was they had the modern nail or semi-nail obliques which don't do anything at all anyway.

A wise poster talking about semi-flex vs Stub and CI, said "Stub and CI were max line variation always; semi-flex was line variation On Demand. That carries over into vintage German obliques also.

 

To the use of an Oblique.

The nib is just placed at the angle ground flat on the piece of paper...some what canted and then written with normally with out doing anything extra. You don't have to do anything fancy to make it work.

IMO only semi-flex Obliques work.

 

I came up with this trick. If the nib has a @ 15 degree grind, align the clip so it aims midway between the slit and the right shoulder of the nib. Align pen in hand so you are looking down the clip, ignore the nib, Place the nib on the paper and write.

 

For a 30 degree grind, align the clip exactly on the right shoulder edge of the nib. Ignore the nib, use the clip as the guide. Place the nib on the paper and write.

 

That was only half the problem.

Some folks still had problems, it just didn't work right for them. Could be also they had modern pens, but some with vintage German pens still had problems.

 

Richard came up with the other half the solution; some folks could not get their oblique nibs to work because they held the paper at 45 degrees....the paper for them had to be held at 90 degrees straight up or 180 pad flat at the edge of the desk, lengthwise. .

 

Suddenly the cries for help ended. The threads became rare.

 

I never had a problem with my oblique patterns when writing at the 'normal' 45 degrees on paper but some did.

 

The '50's-60's pens with semi-flex or maxi-semi-flex nibs that can be had in working Oblique are Soennecken, MB, Pelikan, Osmia, Geha and Kaweco. I highly recommend them.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Bo Bo Olson

[MarkTrain]

  On 3/1/2009 at 4:45 AM, Randal6393 said:

Not strictly true. Digging through my old manuals, especially Graily Hewitt's Lettering and Edward Johnston's Writing and Illuminating and Lettering, reminded me that an oblique nib was cut on a quill so that the pen would present a preferred set of strokes on the page. If the writer was using a cursive hand that required a 30 to 45 degree angle of pen to the horizontal (think italic, irish, semi-formal hands, gothic and German hands), a pen was cut with no obliqueness. The most comfortable way to hold the pen in the right hand resulted in the tip producing a 45 degree angle naturally.

 

Now, to write a formal hand that had a pen angle of 5 to 10 degrees (a "flat-pen" hand), the pen needed to be rotated so that the tip was almost horizontal instead of halfway between horizontal and vertical. This resulted in an uncomfortable position of the hand and the nib of the pen interferring with the view of what was being written. If the pen was cut at an oblique angle (a right-foot oblique), the writer could hold the pen comfortably and still write a flat-pen hand.

 

On the other hand, many right-handed writers preferred to cut their pens with a bit of left-foot obliqueness so that the pen was held in a way that was comfortable for them. A writer that preferred a left-foot oblique might be writing either a cursive or flat-pen formal hand, he just preferred to hold the pen differently than other writers did. This is similar, to my mind, to the preference for straight or oblique penholders when writing Copperplate or Spenserian, etc.

I think that this may be the better way of looking at things. I find that I do not find myself rotating the pen in the hand when going to an oblique but rather rotate my hand relative to the writing line.

[ac12]

As has been said, it is personal preference. I have/had 2 left-foot obliques and I just could not get used to them. Even after writing with one for 3 months, I could not get used to how they wrote. For me a RH person, a LF oblique give me a wide horizontal stroke. I prefer the look of a wide vertical stroke. So for me, a RF oblique would work much better. But I have talked to other RH people who LOVE the LF obliques. So it goes back to individual preference.