Nib Grinding Tools Question

[tibor00]

I'm curious about nib grinding, right now just to smooth rough edges, but perhaps to actually reshape nibs in the future. I've reviewed the information in this nib grinding article, and I have a couple of questions.

 

First, where does one get crocus paper or emery paper in the appropriate grit? Both have been a bit tough to locate online, and when I find emery paper, the finest grit I can find is 4/0.

 

Second, why would I use crocus paper or emery paper anyway? Even if I find 8/0 emery paper, it's effectively 280 grit (10/0 is 400 grit). A soft arkansas stone is about 500 grit. I would think I could get a finer end result by starting with the soft arkansas stone (500 grit), moving to a hard black arkansas stone (1000 grit) for smoothing, and 'polishing' with something like an extra-fine ceramic honer (1500 grit) or a smooth Japanese waterstone in the 2000 grit range. (these grits are all approximate)

 

Grit references are below:

Abrasive/grit comparison chart

Grit size comparison chart

 

Thanks!

[southpaw]

Richard Binder sells a nib smooth kit that's got two types of smoothing paper and a brass shim for flossing between the tines. Also, you can get nib smoothing supplies from Woodbin. You should also read our own wimg's article on nib grinding. It's great and, IIRC, lists some resources as well.

 

www.richardspens.com

 

http://www.simcom.on.ca/woodbin/MicroMeshProducts.htm

 

No affiliation with either, just happy repeat customer of both.

 

HTH, southpaw

[wimg]

Hi tibor,

 

Thank you for those references, I like them, as I hadn't seen them before.

 

Regarding nib grinding, please don't even think of using something as coarse as the material you are suggesting. Nib grinding, i.e., reshaping, only BEGINS at 2000 to 2500 grit, which is the finest material you list here. I think you would be extremely disappointed to find out you have used something that completely and utterly destroyed the tipping and/or nib of your pen. You would when using such coarse materials, I can assure you ( I speak from experience).

 

If you're curious about nib grinding, i.e., nib shaping, you should read the following: Ludwig Tan's article on nb grinding - on Glenn Marcus' Site

 

If you want to find ot a little more about grit sizes, and the type of material to use, just check my article, there is some info towards the end of the paper, past the article itself: Grinding nib experiences

 

Here is where you can buy some lapping film: Lapping film

 

Or from Richard Binder, Richards site - Accessories of course, or David Nishimura at Vintage Pens - Pen parts and tools, just scroll down to nib smoothing discs. And then there is MicroMesh, from Woodbin: MicroMesh Products - Woodbin

 

Anyway, HTH, warm regards, Wim

Edited October 14, 2005 by wimg

[tibor00]

Wim,

 

THAT'S what I was hoping for. Ludwig Tan's article was (to a novice) good on process but lacking in detail on materials. Your detail in both spaces looks like a great place to start.

 

Thanks for the info!

 

 

Jamie

[wimg]

Hi Jamie,

 

It is a pleasure! I am working on a follow-up article, but haven´t found my head around the picture stuff, especially. Did some try-outs today, but not happy yet . Once I´ve perfected what I think I need to do, it´ll come .

 

Warm regards, Wim

[KendallJ]

I'll be labeled a heretic for this, but I use a dremel for nib grinding. I don't know which bit it is, but it came with the set. I think it's a SilCar grinding wheel. The while is a very fine grit and it is rather soft. I have had really good success wtih it. I find that I can very precisely control the angle of approach of the nib to the wheel, and get nice shape. Nibs tipped with iridium grind down very slowly with the bit. Steel nibs are faster, but still workable.

 

I finish off with mylar papers straight away. 1 micron or smaller. For steel i work exclusively with 0.3, and 0.02 micron papers. For iridium I'll do some rough smoothing with 1 or slightly higher.

 

I work on learning how to smooth first. Grinding requires that you gain an understanding of what the final shape shoudl look like. Smoothing first will get you looking at a lot of nibs and experimenting with what sorts of problems can be removed by smoothing alone. Only when you can't remove a problem with smoothing should you consider grinding.

[tryphon]

I'm curious about nib grinding, right now just to smooth rough edges, but perhaps to actually reshape nibs in the future. I've reviewed the information in this nib grinding article, and I have a couple of questions.

 

First, where does one get crocus paper or emery paper in the appropriate grit? Both have been a bit tough to locate online, and when I find emery paper, the finest grit I can find is 4/0.

 

Second, why would I use crocus paper or emery paper anyway? Even if I find 8/0 emery paper, it's effectively 280 grit (10/0 is 400 grit). A soft arkansas stone is about 500 grit. I would think I could get a finer end result by starting with the soft arkansas stone (500 grit), moving to a hard black arkansas stone (1000 grit) for smoothing, and 'polishing' with something like an extra-fine ceramic honer (1500 grit) or a smooth Japanese waterstone in the 2000 grit range. (these grits are all approximate)

 

Grit references are below:

Abrasive/grit comparison chart

Grit size comparison chart

 

Thanks!

I sell Micromesh pad kits that go down to 12000 grit and are excellent for smoothing-reshaping nibs.

In a couple of days we'll introduce a new mylar smoothing kit that will go down to 0.3um particle size (I don't see them available anywhere else).

The whole kit will comprise the following sheets:

9 um (micron)

5 um

3um

1 um

.3 um

Please check my web catalog, the kit should be available in a couple of days,

Giovanni

www.tryphon.it

[Gerry]

You might take a look at this thread as well. Too bad we didn't get them together...

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/in...indpost&p=40775

 

I noted that Richard Binder uses a Dremel as well as Kendall, although he uses a different wheel. The one Richard uses is the fine cutting wheel - but using the broad side as a flat grinding surface.

Advantages: it's already flat so you don't have to try working with two curved surfaces to make a flat one (Italic nib anyway...). It's finer than most of the normal grinding wheels. It's smoother and harder than they are so it works slower and wears less.

Disadvantage: It's fragile, and not meant to be used on its side, so for safety sake, you must use firm backing that has to be glued to the wheel for support. Various materials could be used - but an appropriately sized washer might serve well. You could also make something suitable out of plastic sheet cut to an appropriate size.

 

Not to disagree with Wim, but to add another perspective - I would find 2000 too fine to begin with, as I am somewhat impatient, and not willing to spend the time necessary to take an Iridium tipped M nib down to an Italic shape with that. I would likely start with 1000. Note though, that it is safer to work with the finer grades initially until you develop the habit of carefully checking progress often. As has been said many times - it's a lot easier to remove material than to add it back on.

 

That said, be reasonable about it. If the progress you are making getting to the desired shape is painfully slow, don't be afraid to use more aggressive methods and materials. Motorized tools and harsher grits aren't inherently evil - they just need to be respected for what they do.

 

I noted that you mentioned Japanese water stones. These are wonderful materials to work with - particularly for sharpening knives. Their only problem is their softness - not a problem when working with a broad edge like a knife, but more challenging with something with such a small surface area as a pen nib point. I believe that the biggest problem would be avoiding wearing grooves in the stone surface quite quickly. I have used the really fine stones (they are harder) like the 8000 grit ones - good for polishing, not grinding - the 4000 a little faster working, but grooves more easily. The 1000 would likely work the nib quickly enough to be called grinding, but would groove badly and quickly I think, although I haven't tried it. A better choice you've identified is perhaps the ceramic stones. The source I have identified 800 and 8000 as two grit choices. Don't care for those, but the 1500 you'e located sounds like a winner. They would likely be very true and would not wear badly.

 

What I would really like to see are some of the newer diamond sharpening materials being adapted to the Dremel. I already have an assortment of cutting disks, but they are way too coarse for this application...you can actually see individual grains on these disks. I have a very fine hone used for knives that is tempting. It's a thin metal strip coated with diamond dust (well, really fine particles) and is cemented to a plastic handle. Now, do I have the nerve to cut a disk out of that for the Dremel? <_< Maybe someday, but right now, I like using it the way it is, and I haven't recently seen another for sale...

 

Good luck with your nib grinding Tibor00

 

Gerry

[inkyfingers]

Here is where you can buy some lapping film: Lapping film

FYI, I am not sure about the reliability of this site. I placed an order 7 days ago and have not received my product (2 day shipping requested) or been notified about any backorder issues. I emailed and telephoned regarding my order and have not heard back. Buyer beware!

Edited November 7, 2005 by inkyfingers

[KendallJ]

This is the same site I ordered my film from. They delivered just fine, just took a little longer.

[TLox]

Hi Tibor,

 

How did you get on with your nib grinding? I just thought I'd share my experiences. I'm relatively new to fountain pens (6 months) and about a month ago I became curious about the idea of grinding my own nibs, largely thanks to WimG's and Ludwig Tan's excellent articles on the topic. Well, I gave it a shot and here's the result.

 

Cheers,

Tobias

[southpaw]

Great job! Congrats on your nib grind.

[Richard]

I cut the tip shape using a Dremel with three of the thin cutoff wheels stacked to make a wheel that is thick enough to be used on its side. I use these wheels because I like their coarseness (or lack thereof) and the fact that they are dirt cheap -- I don't need to worry about dressing the surface when it becomes loaded with metal, I simply flip the top wheel over and use the other side, then I pitch it.

 

I refine the shape with 2000-grit wet/dry sandpaper, and I finish the surface with 1.0-micron and 0.3-micron fiber-optic lapping film, interspersed with the finest surface of a Micro-Mesh 2500/4000/12000 fingernail buffer. The ultimate smoothness depends on both the shape and the size of the nib in question; it's possible to finish a nib too smoothly.

 

When I need to reshape the edge of a nib's tine (e.g., when tip grinding has done away with the graceful curve along the outer edge), I use a rubberized wheel in the Dremel, shaping the nib with the curved grinding face of the wheel. This kind of work always gets finished and polished so that it looks as if I haven't been there.

[TLox]

Hi Richard,

 

Have you ever thought about running a sort of nib-grinding school? There might be a market for it...

 

Perhaps I shouldn't have said that nib-grinding was surprisingly easy, I didn't mean to trivialise your work. I guess what I meant was that with a bit of mucking around I could grind something that writes reasonably nicely, but I'm sure that it doesn't compare with something ground by yourself or other nibmeisters. And certainly if you look at my work under a microscope or a loupe you can tell that "ive been there". Still, there's a certain satisfaction that comes from making something with your own hands

 

Out of curiosity, what did you mean about the ultimate smoothness depending on the shape and size of the nib in question? When you say that it's possible to finish a nib too smoothly, are you referring to the baby-bottom effect?

 

Cheers, and Merry Boxing Day!

 

Tobias

[Dillo]

Hi,

 

Nib grinding--you need to make your work look professional. Just ask Mr. Binder for pictures. I grind and polish all nibs by hand using special abrasives, and I have cut slits before.

 

Dillon

[zxc]

Hi Tobias,

 

Thanks for that! I've always been interested in experimenting in Nib Grinding though getting the materials to do it has always seemed like a lot of hassle. Hearing your experience with a Nail Buffer (from Boots) has inspired me to go and get one (since acquiring one is next to no hassle).

 

Should post my experience in the near future.

Edited December 26, 2005 by zxc

[Richard]

Out of curiosity, what did you mean about the ultimate smoothness depending on the shape and size of the nib in question? When you say that it's possible to finish a nib too smoothly, are you referring to the baby-bottom effect?

No, I wasn't referring to the baby-bottom effect. I was referring to the smoothness of hte surface itself. A tip lapped to microscopically perfect smoothness won't write because it won't carry ink across the surface of the writing pad, and when you uncap it there will be no ink to touch the paper and start a capillary flow onto the paper.

 

The perception of smoothness is a function of the actual smoothness and the amount of lubrication being provided by the ink. A broad tip, in order to hold enough ink on the pad surface for ready writing, must be finished to a surface less microscopically smooth than the surface of a fine tip, which need not hold so much ink and which also needs to reduce the potential for excessive toothiness resulting from its smaller radii. The larger tip, although it is actually less smooth, will feel smoother because of its larger radii and because it will be lubricated better.

[TLox]

Richard, thanks for explaining about the smoothness, that's quite fascinating. Since I started using fountain pens a few months ago I've been thinking that there must be a lot of interesting fluid dynamics associated with how they work. And indeed I've seen that you have some nice explanations of how feeds work on your website.

 

Come to think of it, does writing with a pen on paper eventually polish the nib too? I imagine that it must do, albeit very slowly. How does the microscopic smoothness of a nib after much writing on paper compare to it's smoothness after polishing with micromesh/lapping film?

[fncll]

I cut the tip shape using a Dremel with three of the thin cutoff wheels stacked to make a wheel that is thick enough to be used on its side. I use these wheels because I like their coarseness (or lack thereof) and the fact that they are dirt cheap -- I don't need to worry about dressing the surface when it becomes loaded with metal, I simply flip the top wheel over and use the other side, then I pitch it.

 

I refine the shape with 2000-grit wet/dry sandpaper, and I finish the surface with 1.0-micron and 0.3-micron fiber-optic lapping film, interspersed with the finest surface of a Micro-Mesh 2500/4000/12000 fingernail buffer. The ultimate smoothness depends on both the shape and the size of the nib in question; it's possible to finish a nib too smoothly.

 

When I need to reshape the edge of a nib's tine (e.g., when tip grinding has done away with the graceful curve along the outer edge), I use a rubberized wheel in the Dremel, shaping the nib with the curved grinding face of the wheel. This kind of work always gets finished and polished so that it looks as if I haven't been there.

 

Resurrecting this thread to ask a question, but first: THANK YOU for a detailed explanation of the sequence you use. It helps immensely!

 

My question: do you (or anyone else who uses a dremel in this way for nib shaping) use some kind of stand to hold the dremel while you grind or do you just free-hand it the whole way?

[fncll]

Hi Jamie,

 

It is a pleasure! I am working on a follow-up article, but haven´t found my head around the picture stuff, especially. Did some try-outs today, but not happy yet . Once I´ve perfected what I think I need to do, it´ll come .

 

Warm regards, Wim

 

Hi Wim: did you ever get to this follow-up article? Loved the first piece but haven't found the second!