Permanite and celluloid rot?

[InkyProf]

From reading other threads, I understand that in principle all celluloid (cellulose nitrate) pens are prone to decay, and also that the risk is thought to vary by color and brand (e.g., solid black is especially stable; Wahl Dorics of at least some colors are especially risky). Simple question for those with experience: where is Parker's orange Permanite on this scale?

 

(Yes, I store my pens in a moderately temp- and humidity-controlled environment, in the dark, in drawers whose "pulls" are actually large cutouts that allow air circulation, and I compare the ends of my celluloid pens to photographic benchmarks taken upon purchase every 48 hours to check for signs of lightening in the material at the cap and barrel ends, and everything in this sentence except that last bit is true. 🙂 ) 

[Paul-in-SF]

The only thing I know about Parker's red/orange permanite is by report, and it is that it can become brittle, which seems to be manifested mainly in the cap lip area, with cracks and chips; perhaps that is because it is thinner there, and/or under more stress from tightening the cap threads. My personal experience is that this is apparently even more so with the Mandarin Yellow permanite. I have not heard of the kind of decay with permanite that I have seen on Wahl-Eversharp Doric pens, where it gets translucent and then disintegrates. I don't know if permanite emits a gas which is dangerous to other pens, as celluloid can do. This is all very circumstantial and unscientific, but it is what I have read and seen. 

[InkyProf]

Thanks, Paul, that's really helpful. (It really is a shame about the Dorics, because they're beautiful pens.)

[jchch1950]

On 4/13/2025 at 1:39 AM, InkyProf said:

Thanks, Paul, that's really helpful. (It really is a shame about the Dorics, because they're beautiful pens.)

Some pens of high-end factories can have problems with the celluloid material they are made of, and no way to find replacement parts, much less a company guarantee. After losing many of the celluloid pens, I now try to avoid the material.

[VacNut]

Of the numerous Parker celluloid pens I own, I would say I have experienced less than 1% celluloid “rot” (one failed emerald cap, and one crumpling red marble cap)
The Eversharps Doric and Coronet pens are problematic about 10% of the time. The Eversharp Deco Band have no issues.

 

The Parker Ripley and Candy Stripe are known to be delicate at times.

 

I have had no issues with undamaged  Red or Mandarin Duofolds.

Several Sheaffer Red-Veined pens started to fade at the tip of the cap.

 

The Omas Paragon Pens in Green and Blue show slight deterioration. The blue has a tendency to turn lavender and the Green out gases so the trim  becomes corroded.

[InkyProf]

Thank you, @VacNut. Grateful for your experience.

[VacNut]

I was reading the Parker Repair Manual, which is available from the PCA Archives. Parker claimed their celluloid was proprietary, so that may explain why so few of their pens have problems with decomposition.

Besides pens that they made for other retailers, I don’t remember seeing their celluloid being used by other mfrs. Other mfrs used similar patterns and colors but other than the various “candy-stripe” celluloid pens, I can’t think of any other pens.

 

[FarmBoy]

Often copied but never equalled?

[pen lady]

Isn't the material used in the Golden Web Vacumatics kinda prone to rot?

[Glenn-SC]

8 hours ago, pen lady said:

Isn't the material used in the Golden Web Vacumatics kinda prone to rot?

Not mine! 😁

[pen lady]

Lucky you. I had one that was ''turning'' and sold it cheaply to a dealer, who knew it's issues, to be used for parts.  I didn't want to keep it anywhere near my other pens.

[Glenn-SC]

Yeah, “Lucky” for over 20 years now.  
(I’d like to know of other examples of this occurring on the Golden Web pens.)

I have Sheaffer Balances, particularly the red veined grey pearl color, that exhibit this phenomenon. 

[VacNut]

The cap just beneath the clip is the common area. I have never seen the barrel go bad. Fortunately there are still many caps available.

Still one of the top 5 Parker pens.

[Vintagepens]

The orange celluloid used by Parker for their Duofolds has held up quite well. I don't recall ever seeing any completely crystallized and disintegrating; the worst has been where it looked dried out and had become brittle. Storage conditions over the decades surely play a large role here.

Parker bought most if not all their celluloids from Dupont. 
Parker's celluloids may not have been made differently from other companies' celluloids, but Parker was careful about giving their parts additional curing time at slightly elevated temperature before finish machining. Sheaffer was also careful about this.

[InkyProf]

This makes sense, @Vintagepens. I had wondered whether individual pen companies were really manufacturing their own celluloid, which seemed unlikely.

 

And thanks again to everyone (and one of you in particular) for penabling my latest arrival, a 1926 Duofold Junior.

[VacNut]

A Senior Duofold would look great next to a Junior Duofold!!😜

[InkyProf]

O tempting Sirens! Since I'm here by myself, I can't have my shipmates tie me to the mast like Odysseus, but I can plug my ears with... silicone grease?

[es9]

17 hours ago, Vintagepens said:

The orange celluloid used by Parker for their Duofolds has held up quite well. I don't recall ever seeing any completely crystallized and disintegrating; the worst has been where it looked dried out and had become brittle. Storage conditions over the decades surely play a large role here.

Parker bought most if not all their celluloids from Dupont. 
Parker's celluloids may not have been made differently from other companies' celluloids, but Parker was careful about giving their parts additional curing time at slightly elevated temperature before finish machining. Sheaffer was also careful about this.

Kind of astonishing that Parker and Sheaffer had the foresight to do this, but some modern makers have not. 

 

[Paul-in-SF]

6 hours ago, es9 said:

Kind of astonishing that Parker and Sheaffer had the foresight to do this, but some modern makers have not. 

 

Parker and Sheaffer probably paid more for their celluloid materials than the other makers whose celluloid was vulnerable. Perhaps they valued the long-term strength of their brand over short-term profits. I am not astonished that some modern pen makers don't have that same outlook.

[VacNut]

When they were still making celluloid 30 years ago, the process took years just to cure the material. I am assuming the manufacturer had to buy/order in larger quantities those colors and patterns they intended to use for there pen lines, to keep it proprietary. I don’t think they could have easily changed the marketing and design process if the celluloid became faulty. I am guessing the best they could have done was to reject some of the stock.

 

I don’t condone their thinking, or like their decision making; but I can see how a modern struggling mfr may take the risk.

At least some of the celluloid was good