Loctite 480 as filler in celluloid...

[Seney724]

14 hours ago, es9 said:

If you were to graph the risk-reward tradeoff for various cosmetic repairs, many would look like some version of the graph of enzyme function to human body temperature. You steadily make good progress, but then the return starts to diminish. And if you keep pressing on, you end up falling off a cliff. Learning when to stop can be almost as hard as learning a repair technique itself. It’s something I am constantly working on, and I have a few celluloid corpses hanging around as mementos mori. 

 

Not all pens can be made perfect. Sometimes the teeth marks seem to vanish like magic. Other times small remnants remain. Learning to enjoy—or at least accept—the imperfections is another dimension of the hobby. 

Thank you for this very wise and thoughtful comment.  It represents a very important point about undertaking a challenging pen restoration and/or repair.   The distinction between a professional and an amateur is not nearly as important as is the need for some good judgement and the constant presence of a "light hand."  There is nothing about being a "professional" which confers these abilities upon someone.  Yes, good judgement is often acquired as a result of having had a bad experience (often more than just a single one!) but there is absolutely no reason whatsoever that a hobbyist who's services are not for hire (aka an "amateur") cannot achieve the desired level of comfort and proficiency with this work.

 

Over the years I have done a fair amount of this type of work. Yes, some of my outcomes have been better than others, but, for the most part, I have been very happy with them.  By far, the worst outcome I have experienced was the result of having had a "professional" do the work.  Not just any professional, mind you, but a very well known professional.  I got no apology or expression of remorse; only a returned piece of useless celluloid material and a note stating there was no charge (!) since the work was unable to be completed.  From that day on I've done my own figuring I might not be a professional but it was unlikely I could have done a worse job.

 

 

[Nightjar]

@Seney724 I'm just a dumb beginner and have already made plenty of mistakes... last week it was a <£10 minor-name hard rubber pen (Dickinson), took me ages to get nib and feed out, but I did it with no damage caused and reinserted correctly. Then I snapped a big chunk off of the barrel threading 😖 [Not because I was doing anything particularly aggressive, I think I was just reinserting the section and the material presumably very brittle... I guess that was my "light touch" lesson!]

 

It's a fun challenge to try restoring pens, and I try to avoid "over-restoration" and bodge jobs. I couldn't really afford to pay a professional... though definitely there are jobs/pens I wouldn't want to attempt myself.

 

Certainly it's wonderful that people like @Ron Z are willing to share their expertise derived from long experience, and I don't suppose Ron is the repairer who gave you that bad experience!

 

Meanwhile, I must see if I can find some celluloid to play with: old photographic film, perhaps...

 

This is useful: https://cool.culturalheritage.org/jaic/articles/jaic30-02-003.html

[From the museum conservator perspective, not specific to fountain pens: long story short, conservators shouldn't attempt restoration/repair beyond cleaning and removal of non-original materials including adhesives, not enough known yet.]

 

I also note HMG Cellulose Nitrate Adhesive ("blue tube"), which has related composition (70% amyl acetate, 25% cellulose nitrate, 5% plasticiser dibutyl phthalate; acetone-soluble; clear). But of course, even if it works well short-term, no guarantee it'll work well long-term. [Though also, I guess: unless cellulose shaved from the pen itself or related donor, no guarantee it's sufficiently similar.]

[Seney724]

2 hours ago, Nightjar said:

@Seney724 I'm just a dumb beginner and have already made plenty of mistakes... last week it was a <£10 minor-name hard rubber pen (Dickinson), took me ages to get nib and feed out, but I did it with no damage caused and reinserted correctly. Then I snapped a big chunk off of the barrel threading 😖 [Not because I was doing anything particularly aggressive, I think I was just reinserting the section and the material presumably very brittle... I guess that was my "light touch" lesson!]

 

It's a fun challenge to try restoring pens, and I try to avoid "over-restoration" and bodge jobs. I couldn't really afford to pay a professional... though definitely there are jobs/pens I wouldn't want to attempt myself.

 

Certainly it's wonderful that people like @Ron Z are willing to share their expertise derived from long experience, and I don't suppose Ron is the repairer who gave you that bad experience!

 

Meanwhile, I must see if I can find some celluloid to play with: old photographic film, perhaps...

 

This is useful: https://cool.culturalheritage.org/jaic/articles/jaic30-02-003.html

[From the museum conservator perspective, not specific to fountain pens: long story short, conservators shouldn't attempt restoration/repair beyond cleaning and removal of non-original materials including adhesives, not enough known yet.]

 

I also note HMG Cellulose Nitrate Adhesive ("blue tube"), which has related composition (70% amyl acetate, 25% cellulose nitrate, 5% plasticiser dibutyl phthalate; acetone-soluble; clear). But of course, even if it works well short-term, no guarantee it'll work well long-term. [Though also, I guess: unless cellulose shaved from the pen itself or related donor, no guarantee it's sufficiently similar.]

Everyone is a beginner in the beginning @Nightjar.  If one enjoys the type of work which restoration and repairs entail, there is much joy as one develops their knowledge and proficiency.  Yes, there are experiences with each project, some better than others, but every one of them provides valuable learning opportunities.  And, at least some, should provide some real gratification!   Those who do not enjoy the work, for whatever reason, are best advised to let others do the work for them.  Likewise, if one recognizes that their knowledge, skills and ability are not ready for the work required, the project should be saved for another day or given to someone who is able to perform the work with skill and confidence.

 

Good luck!!

[Ron Z]

2 hours ago, Seney724 said:

Everyone is a beginner in the beginning @Nightjar.  If one enjoys the type of work which restoration and repairs entail, there is much joy as one develops their knowledge and proficiency. 

 

I agree.  Why else would I spend so much time on FPN answering questions about repair?  I bought a lot of pens back when I started not so much because I wanted more pens, but I wanted pens to work on!  We didn't have the resources that we have now to find out how to repair pens, and If I can help....

 

There are cases though were it's "Been there, done that, and the results were awful, or the pen was ruined."  It wouldn't be fair not to say, "Um, that doesn't works so well."  Believe me, I'm not trying to drum up business!

[Nightjar]

3 minutes ago, Ron Z said:

Believe me, I'm not trying to drum up business!

 

Yup, I know that, and very grateful! 👍🏼

[Seney724]

1 hour ago, Ron Z said:

 

I agree.  Why else would I spend so much time on FPN answering questions about repair?  I bought a lot of pens back when I started not so much because I wanted more pens, but I wanted pens to work on!  We didn't have the resources that we have now to find out how to repair pens, and If I can help....

 

There are cases though were it's "Been there, done that, and the results were awful, or the pen was ruined."  It wouldn't be fair not to say, "Um, that doesn't works so well."  Believe me, I'm not trying to drum up business!

There may be something one does with their hands which is performed perfectly from the very first time....... but I cannot think of an example.

There is a learning curve and I think we are both acknowledging that.........

 

My point is as one works their way through that curve, using pens which are inexpensive enough that they can be looked upon as "practice," there is an immense amount of joy in realizing you are getting better at the work.  And, if you really enjoy it and stick with it, at some point you will gain sufficient enough confidence that you take on more challenging tasks and become comfortable enough to work on higher quality pens.

Hopefully, if you don't like it or do not see yourself progressing, you are smart enough to find another way to use your time and your money.  Every mistake and/or error is a learning opportunity and every time you "get it done right" the next time is a personal triumph.  

 

Let's not fail to acknowledge the importance of using the correct tool for the task.  The right tool can make any task easier; the converse, of course, is the wrong tool can make an easy job impossible to perform.  For this, I have to say that I'd have probably never gotten past first base were it not for Richard Binder and the wealth of information he generously provides on his website, specifically on his "Repairer's Corner."

@Nightjar, have a look at this link:

http://www.richardspens.com/ref/repair/00_readme1st.htm

 

More often than not, the things that make me reach out for help are the tasks for which I do not have the right tool..... and I want the job done right.  Some tools are extraordinarily expensive and others are out of production.  In those instances one would be a fool to not spend the money and get the pen to someone who has the tool on their workbench.

 

I am an "amateur".....and proud of it.  My work & my services are not for hire.  My successes..... and my failures....... are mine and mine alone.  As with so many things in life, it all started with a single step followed by lots of things that didn't work so well.  And then, one day, they did..........

 

I hope you can understand why I bristle when someone insinuates that because I am not a "professional" I am probably not good enough to do the work I do.

[Ron Z]

3 minutes ago, Seney724 said:

I hope you can understand why I bristle when someone insinuates that because I am not a "professional" I am probably not good enough to do the work I do.

 

That is not to impugn anyone, but more of a "dragons be here...." 

[Seney724]

1 minute ago, Ron Z said:

 

That is not to impugn anyone, but more of a "dragons be here...." 

I understand your point 100%

But in addition to not impugning someone I hope you would agree it is not a good idea to discourage anyone who is interested in developing their skills and becoming proficient.

[VacNut]

36 minutes ago, Seney724 said:

I understand your point 100%

But in addition to not impugning someone I hope you would agree it is not a good idea to discourage anyone who is interested in developing their skills and becoming proficient.

Given our modern lifestyle we have an unreal expectation on the delivery of items and the ability to repair or replicate items, albeit at a high hidden cost.

 

The pens we are trying to restore are almost 100 years old. They may be worn. They may have hidden damage. They may just be brittle with age. 

I greatly appreciate the guidance and knowledge I have gained learning from experienced restorers, but please remember that most of these people do it more for the love than for profit. Working on these relics aren’t a science, but more art. (Ron you can correct me from your palace retreat in Monaco, if I am wrong.). 
 

I can safely say there have been tens of millions of vintage and antique pens. It is unrealistic to think that pens were manufactured with the same materials in the same methods. It is just trial and error - try researching how to remove a dent from a 51 cap or to replace a waterman clip or lever box. Interesting reading.
 

When these pen were “new” the pen shop technicians would just replace the entire barrel or cap with a new one, if it was damaged. They had plenty of spare parts. They would have considered inconceivable to try and replace a lever box. You probably just bought a new barrel.

 

Last words…be patient with the hobby. Not all pens can be restored to meet our expectations. Some are donor pens, so others can live on. Why do you think there are so many auctions on pen parts?

 

also, try a little dry heat on the barrel before reinstalling sections. Cracked barrels may be inevitable but the dry heat slightly softens the material.

In the immortal words of Dr. Henry Walton Jones, SR: “Indiana, let it go…”

 

$0.02.

[Nightjar]

@Seney724 wrote "it is not a good idea to discourage anyone who is interested in developing their skills"... not discouraged here, far from it!

 

@VacNut wrote "try a little dry heat on the barrel before reinstalling sections"... 👍🏼 Must get myself a hair-dryer. Or a tame dragon.

 

Thanks again for excellent advice!

[VacNut]

Hair dryer works for me, but others use a calibrated heat gun.

[es9]

I use a small heat gun for embossing. I think it was $10. I like it because it’s precise. I’ve thought about seeing if any of the small nozzle attachments would work to be even more precise, but honestly haven’t needed to yet. All mistakes have been my fault, not the heat gun’s. 

[VacNut]

A BHR pen is much more resistant to heat than celluloid. A hair dryer doesn’t get hot enough to damage the material. 
The embossing heat gun may be helpful if you intend on doing more repairs. It certainly keeps one from blowing parts off the pen bench!!!

[Grayfeather]

A thought here, what about a non cyanoacrylate epoxy, like a 2 part epoxy, for refinishing pits, etc, on celluloids? I use an epoxy when repairing fishing rod guides, that brushes on very smoothly, is crystal clear, and levels out before curing, so no brush marks. Comes out very durable, and has a nice shine.

 

Another thought, what about a UV cure type of epoxy/glue/filler?

 

Thoughts?

 

A

[Ron Z]

5 hours ago, Nightjar said:

Or a tame dragon.

 

AKA "open flame," on steroids. 

 

The advantage to the embossing gun, which is what most professionals use,  is that the heat is more focused so you are heating a smaller area, and more efficiently.   I have one of the temperature controlled heat guns.  No idea where it is in the basement.

[Seney724]

17 hours ago, es9 said:

I use a small heat gun for embossing. I think it was $10. I like it because it’s precise. I’ve thought about seeing if any of the small nozzle attachments would work to be even more precise, but honestly haven’t needed to yet. All mistakes have been my fault, not the heat gun’s. 

 

17 hours ago, es9 said:

Scroll down about halfway through this page from Richard Binder's site.  This is the heating device he recommends and I can vouch for it as being both inexpensive and just right for the job.

I've seen a ton of these on the "pros" tables at pen shows.........

http://www.richardspens.com/ref/repair/essentials.htm

 

[VacNut]

16 hours ago, Grayfeather said:

A thought here, what about a non cyanoacrylate epoxy, like a 2 part epoxy, for refinishing pits, etc, on celluloids? I use an epoxy when repairing fishing rod guides, that brushes on very smoothly, is crystal clear, and levels out before curing, so no brush marks. Comes out very durable, and has a nice shine.

 

Another thought, what about a UV cure type of epoxy/glue/filler?

 

Thoughts?

 

A

The crystal clear finish is partly the issue. Celluloid colors and patterns are embedded into the material. A clear repair has a different reflectivity and lacks the depth of the celluloid. It is less of an issue on solid materials or on black celluloid with a high polish.
Some people will mix in their own celluloid powder from a crushed donor pen with MEK or acetone to mimic the celluloid.

Unless the pen has sentimental value or high-value, the amount of time and work is not worthwhile to most restorers.

 

It may also be more simple to source a replacement part.

[Grayfeather]

50 minutes ago, VacNut said:

Unless the pen has sentimental value or high-value, the amount of time and work is not worthwhile to most restorers.

 

It may also be more simple to source a replacement part.

 

True. I was thinking along the lines of scratching rather than say, large pitting. 

 

And you are correct, I think in some cases were available it might be just as easy to source a replacement part. It might be a little costly but in the end it would get to the heart of the problem very quickly. 

 

A

[VacNut]

For light scratches, most people sand and then polish. One just needs to be careful not to be too aggressive and to sand evenly around the entire pen, so there isn’t a flat spot. 
Celluloid is relatively soft, so applying a hard more dense filler may result in uneven sanding.

[Ron Z]

19 hours ago, VacNut said:

Unless the pen has sentimental value or high-value, the amount of time and work is not worthwhile to most restorers.

 

 

Don't include me in that please.  I do a lot of celluloid repair.