Advice sought, Waterman 52 with whacky clip

[Nightjar]

Hi there

 

Beginner here. I just bought a BCHR Waterman Ideal 52. Marked "Waterman's Reg.U.S (Ideal) Pat.Off. Fountain Pen", with 52 on bottom. It has some cosmetic issues which I consider acceptable for price (two fine short cracks in cap, they seem [?] readily fixable; little piece broken off cap, no problem; light-faded, no problem). Nib marked 2, writes very nicely: no expert, but I would say fine with modest flex and slight italic feel.

 

My three questions follow, if anyone can help. Photos linked (at end of post), I hope they are readily accessible. And I have uploaded one photo directly to this post.

 

1) The clip is unusual, a dragonfly, brass I think, I've been unable to find anything similar by googling or Google Lens. I presume after-market accommodation clip, which might be a) of-period, been with the pen most of its life; b) of similar period but cannibalised by someone from another make of pen; or c) modern faux-vintage. The clip bears a mark that reads "***** depose" (I guess déposé); I read ***** in one way, but it doesn't seem a very plausible word, so leaving it blank so as not to influence your read. Any ideas on what this clip is? [If faux-vintage, no worries, I'll just remove it.]

 

2) The lever appears to work, with some scrunching going on inside, appears to fill. When I gently twist the grip section, no movement and I don't want to force it. Should I be concerned that sac is degraded and ink being drawn directly into barrel? Do I need to cautiously try to separate barrel? Or take it to a specialist?

 

3) Are cracks in cap fixable by me? If so, what adhesive should I use?

 

Answers to all or any of these questions would be much appreciated.

 

Thank you!

 

Photos...

 

Waterman 52 dragonfly

Edited January 31 by Nightjar

[pen lady]

The accommodation clip is probably quite old and if you can live with it, I'd let it stay on the cap.  I'll leave the question of repairing the cap to others who have more knowledge about fixing old hard black rubber.  However, the crunching sounds when you try to fill the pen are never a good thing. You should replace the sac as you could risk damaging the lever/lever box and/or the pressure bar.  However, if you are new to fixing vintage pens, do you want  to start on something that's about 100 years old?  Maybe consider having a pro do it.  Best of luck.

[Penguincollector]

  Wow, that’s jumping into the deep end of the pool! I don’t have any advice other than don’t force the lever.  The crunchy sound is probably a petrified sac. I would post on the repair forum. For now I’m thinking maybe @Dillo or @Ron Z may have some advice or know someone on your side of the pond that can help.

[Nightjar]

@pen lady I can definitely live with the clip, and I agree it's probably old... making faux-vintage clips for Waterman 52s hardly seems like a viable business model 🤣 

 

@pen lady and @Penguincollector  (haha yes recklessly jumping in at deep end)... crunchy sac not a Good Thing, understood, but perhaps it's okay... I just gently pulled the lever, it went to full-open position, some noise and feel from inside but still, perhaps "crunchy" was alarmist, and it seems to take up a good amount of ink, so perhaps it's fine. (Reportedly from a large collection sold on that person's death, so perhaps ??? sac was replaced 10 or 30 years ago.)

 

I will try to get someone who knows what they're doing to take a look. And (aside from possibly gluing the cap cracks) I won't attempt repairs, and won't attempt to separate barrel myself.

 

Thank you!

Edited January 31 by Nightjar

[Christopher Godfrey]

By the way, Nightjar, that's no dragonfly; but a cicada.  I second the recommendation of Mr. Ron Zorn at Main Street Pens, if you do decide to send the pen away.  52s are fine pens: enjoy it.

[Nightjar]

Noted Christopher, and thank you... I had suspected the same, but leaned towards dragonfly. Now I stand corrected 😂👍

 

I'm in the UK, so would probably look for someone here. But as noted, first step I think will be to find someone knowledgeable locally, get their view on its state of health...

 

It certainly just wrote an A4 page of gobbledygook very nicely...

 

Oh, and (drawing upon Christopher's entomological expertise) I just found another instance of the clip, sadly with no information beyond "antique accommodation clip"...

 

 

Edited January 31 by Nightjar

[GlenV]

I like your 52, and that is a cool accommodation clip! Not seen one like it. The sac is typically petrified on an old pen unless already restored. Don't try to use the lever if any resistance as these are prone to break at the pivot point. And getting more expensive to find replacement boxes. The cap chip is really not so fixable to most repairers, so to be a collector grade pen would need a new cap, also getting more expensive to find. I do repair mine and if not to the chasing on the cap they look good but still are repaired and not collector grade. The section comes apart with a little heat and gentle movement but the old ebonite is prone to cracking and a thread crack basically needs a new barrel. Unless you have experience with that it's too nice to do yourself for most folks. If you get some other pens to learn on you could give it ago though, I really like these and wish I had more... (is there an end to that though?) 

[Nightjar]

Thanks so much @GlenV, all very useful advice. My non-expert hypothesis (since it seems to fill okay and work fine) is that the sac has been replaced, but perhaps 10 or 30 years ago. Anyway, I won't try filling it again until I've found someone knowledgeable to show it to, see what they think.

 

Love the bufflehead!

[Mark from Yorkshire]

@Nightjar try to get to one of the UK pen shows there are usually repairers at them. My go to has mixed reviews on here. So I will leave it there as they have generally been fine for what I want.

[Dillo]

I would have it restored. The leverboxes are relatively fragile, and I've seen so many destroyed ones by people trying to work the lever without restoring it first. That crunch should be your first tell tale sign that something is wrong, and if there is ink inside the barrel leaking out of the sac, it's bad enough to recover from that.

 

One of my rules is never to pull on a Waterman lever without knowing that the sac is still good.

[Nightjar]

I will henceforth heed that stern (and undoubtedly correct) advice. Fortunately I didn't break the lever, and I'll get it looked at by someone who knows their onions.

[GlenV]

3 hours ago, Nightjar said:

Thanks so much @GlenV, all very useful advice. My non-expert hypothesis (since it seems to fill okay and work fine) is that the sac has been replaced, but perhaps 10 or 30 years ago. Anyway, I won't try filling it again until I've found someone knowledgeable to show it to, see what they think.

 

Love the bufflehead!

Best luck with the 52, I’m surprised you know about Buffleheads from the UK? Although your Goldeneye I think is basically the same as ours, Mergansers are a bit different than your Goosander and I’ve never seen a Smew… but we have some really pretty Hooded mergs

[Nightjar]

Haha, not sure if it's legal to discuss the b-word here... birds that is, not ballpoints! We have red-breasted merganser, same as yours I think, the commonest here probably. Goosander not uncommon. I've only seen smew once that I remember, sadly I think they're much rarer than they used to be. VERY jealous of hooded merganser, I've only seen them in captivity! And switching to Bucephalus: I think you're right, same goldeneye. And there's a rare flavour, Barrow's goldeneye, which I've never seen, without checking not sure of its distribution, may well get to your side too. Have a fab day!

Edited February 1 by Nightjar

[Christopher Godfrey]

@GlenV and Nightjar: I think a new thread is called for...!!

[Nightjar]

Carefully avoiding ornithological taboos, back to topic. I was able to remove the section (just with persistent gentle rocking, after sitting it in a box on the radiator for an hour). Sac entirely petrified, but I'm gently dislodging the remains (no water), and the lever apparatus appears okay. I think there's also some sort of rising-and-falling disc down there, sounds rather like the mechanism in a Rotring technical pen. Section plastic where it fits into the barrel is structurally sound. Anyway, will proceed slowly and keep googling...

 

EDIT: Not some rising-and-falling disc, I think it's just the inner "paddle" hinged to the lever, which sounds/feels like a Rotring mechanism when I jiggle the sac-less barrel. Hopefully the internal mechanism is intact and correctly positioned, not sure yet. It's simply the paddle-thingy that presses on the sac, that's all there is?

Edited Monday at 10:20 PM by Nightjar

[Christopher Godfrey]

<Section plastic where it fits into the barrel is structurally sound>

 

Noooo, not plastic: that's "BHR" or black hard rubber!  If, when re-assembling the parts, you find any play between section and barrel, then plumbers' tape is useful, just wound around the section once or twice (it's very thin stuff and stretchy, too).

 

Are you finding (or did you find) it easy to remove all the petrified rubber sac?  A tool something like a narrow chemical spatula helps there and they are available from many sellers of vintage parts and repair tools.

[Nightjar]

Thank you @Christopher Godfrey... yes, sorry, ebonite not a plastic in the general use of that term.

 

I think I've got all of the dead sac out, including gentle blade work to get it off the nipple.

 

My issue is understanding what metal anatomy should be inside. As far as I can work out, all there is is a "paddle" (whatever the word is), hinged to the inner end of the lever; all moves freely, but not spring-tensioned as far as I can see/feel, and perhaps (?) it should be.

 

[Also for the record: the cicada clip (though probably fairly old) looks like a fairly recent addition, when removed the rubber is the same faded colour underneath.]

 

 

[pen lady]

The pressure bar in your Waterman is kind of ''hooked'' on to the lever by means of lugs which fit into grooves on the pressure bar.  There is no springing involved. When you raise the lever, the lower end swings into the barrel, and the pressure bar pivots to compress the (hopefully) springy sac.

 

Well done removing the old sac from the nipple. Give it a light sanding to provide a bit of grip which will help the new sac adhere.

[Nightjar]

Thank you @pen lady, super-helpful explanation, looks like all good then. (On a tube train, internet connection in the tube, whatever next?) Number 17 straight sac and shellac ordered. Noted light sand to nipple. And @Christopher Godfrey... noted the plumber's tape tip, though I don't think necessary this time. Really appreciated, thank you both.

[pen lady]

I'm glad to help. Vintage Waterman pens are my all-time favourites. Oh, BTW did you order talc as well as the sac and shellac?  Not the cosmetic/baby powder type, but 100% pure lab grade talc. It will help the sac slide into the barrel and stop the pressure bar from sticking.