Pelikan M400, W. Germany. What are they made of, really?

[stoen]

On 1/26/2025 at 5:37 PM, TassoBarbasso said:

 

@Stoen, do you happen to know if this construction (acrylic ink reservoir with cellulose acetate "wrap") was also used for the M400s after 1982? I.e., those up to 1992 (which is when they stopped using the W.Germany mark)?

 

My specialty is a rather narrow branch of pens, among them is the Pelikan fountain pen (1929-79). Occasionally I come across some newer pen. The newest Peilkan I have is a 1982 M400. I wish I could give you a reliable answer. Unfortunately I can’t, because not so many post-1990 Pelikans went trough my hands. I presume not so much has changed in Pelikan technology between 80s and 90s, but cannot give a firm answer. Thanks for your understanding.

[TassoBarbasso]

On 1/27/2025 at 5:22 AM, stric75 said:

Over the years I’ve learned that the best inks for my pens are safety inks, primarily from Europe, and I tend to use those. I have some very nice old pens and I’d hate to ruin them with some inks. 

 

True in principle, but some people need to use archival inks for work-related reasons. So that sadly rules out all Waterman, Pelikan, Diamine inks  Which is why I need to be sure the inner ink reservoir isn't going to melt off if I fill it with a Pilot or Sailor nanopigment ink.

[TassoBarbasso]

7 hours ago, stoen said:

My specialty is a rather narrow branch of pens, among them is the Pelikan fountain pen (1929-79). Occasionally I come across some newer pen. The newest Peilkan I have is a 1982 M400. I wish I could give you a reliable answer. Unfortunately I can’t, because not so many post-1990 Pelikans went trough my hands. I presume not so much has changed in Pelikan technology between 80s and 90s, but cannot give a firm answer. Thanks for your understanding.

 

Thank you for your informed comments, what you've written is already incredibly useful and informative, you have no idea how grateful I am ❤️ 

[Lithium466]

1 hour ago, TassoBarbasso said:

 

True in principle, but some people need to use archival inks for work-related reasons. So that sadly rules out all Waterman, Pelikan, Diamine inks  Which is why I need to be sure the inner ink reservoir isn't going to melt off if I fill it with a Pilot or Sailor nanopigment ink.

Could you do with iron gall inks? I know the question is kind of obvious but I had to ask.

[Bo Bo Olson]

ESSR was rated a slight bit better than Diamine as a blue-black register ink.

De Atramentis makes archive inks, and in different colors.

 

We had one of the longest threads in the Com's history about ESSR. I called it sneaky, Sandy1 called it mischievous.

I did a lost in Randsom Bucket 17 paper test of ESSR. On some papers, one could watch it change from blue to a dark blue-black before one was down to the end of the page. Other papers took up to three days to make that change.

Richard Binder said a good BB ink took a day to change color.

The ink is only good for two years, though. 110ml plastic bottle at a fair price.

I'm not into BB inks, having only 6, now my bottle of ESSR died....it just turned sort of black with no blue to it, long after the expiration date.

 

The ESSR is the single remaining ink, of a once great English ink company. (forget which, Stephen's, perhaps.) In the '70's a conglomerate bought it up and sold it, for the land under the ink factory.

One of the Ink company last managers got the big wooden tun, that they made the blue-black ink in and the recipe fpr the BB ink as part of his settlement. There was a man who loved his job.

[TassoBarbasso]

5 hours ago, Lithium466 said:

Could you do with iron gall inks? I know the question is kind of obvious but I had to ask.

 

Not really, they perform very poorly when exposed to UV rays, nor are they particularly waterproof. They also tend to be very dry, which makes writing unpleasant with some pens.

 

DeAtramentis document inks are another option, but they bleed like hell on most paper, and tend to sediment much more than nanopigment inks.

 

Based on my 16 years of experience using document / archival inks (IGs, Noodler's, DeAtramentis, Sailor / Platinum / Pilot nano-pigments,MontBlanc document inks, Koh-i-Noor, ...), the Japanese ones are hands down the best. Especially the Pilot ones. 

 

The only ones I haven't tried are Octopus Fluid and Lamy Benitoite. 

Edited yesterday at 01:41 PM by TassoBarbasso
Edited to add one brand to the list

[stoen]

I wish I could be of any more help here. I’m a big fan of modern IG inks, like R&K Scabiosa, and Diamine Registrar’s. However, they have a weak spot: although age-proof and weather-proof, they’re not bleech proof. Substances like sodium hypoclorite can do bad things to the script, even after years.

I am reluctant to (nano)pigment based inks. I haven’t come across one which wouldn’t leave a noticeable amount of residue… high maintenence, IMHO.

Fortunately, all Pelikans are well engineered pens, easy to msintain.

🙂

[Bo Bo Olson]

3 hours ago, TassoBarbasso said:

DeAtramentis document inks are another option, but they bleed like hell on most paper, and tend to sediment much more than nanopigment inks.

One learns something new every day on the com. 

 

I chase shading inks, and outside a couple IG inks, and the BB inks I have, no permeant inks.

[Lithium466]

9 hours ago, TassoBarbasso said:

 

Not really, they perform very poorly when exposed to UV rays, nor are they particularly waterproof. They also tend to be very dry, which makes writing unpleasant with some pens.

 

DeAtramentis document inks are another option, but they bleed like hell on most paper, and tend to sediment much more than nanopigment inks.

 

Based on my 16 years of experience using document / archival inks (IGs, Noodler's, DeAtramentis, Sailor / Platinum / Pilot nano-pigments,MontBlanc document inks, Koh-i-Noor, ...), the Japanese ones are hands down the best. Especially the Pilot ones. 

 

The only ones I haven't tried are Octopus Fluid and Lamy Benitoite. 

Indeed, you'd need a heavy IG content for the UV resistance, and wouldn't get perfect water resistance (no move) unless you'd go for a formula without auxiliary die...not something available on the market! The Büroservice Bergmann inks could get close IMO (albeit with auxiliary die), but the blue has been discontinued.

Lamy Benitoite is an IG ink too.

[stric75]

@TassoBarbasso Why not use a different pen for archival inks? Unless - of course - you write with them all the time. For example, I’d never use a very nice and expensive pen with Noodler’s Baystste Blue. But since you’d like to use a Japanese ink, why not get a decent Japanese FP for them. My understanding is that those inks are harmless to. Most of the ja  pool sense pens. 

 

[Geert Jan]

On 1/28/2025 at 2:30 PM, TassoBarbasso said:

DeAtramentis document inks are another option, but they bleed like hell on most paper, and tend to sediment much more than nanopigment inks.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought these inks were nanopigment as well (based on what I read about them).  An alternative would be Octopus Fluids document in (with an official ISO 2757-Part 2: 1999 certification by an external party). In my limited experience pretty wet and easy to write with, and no feathering or bleeding from what I've seen up till now. Just don't let them dry out in a pen (applies to any nano-pigment ink, I guess)