Pelikan M400, W. Germany. What are they made of, really?

[TassoBarbasso]

Hi All!

 

I need advise  I've got a Pelikan M400 that I love, with the best nib you can think of.

 

Problem: it writes beautifully with any ink, but divinely when filled with one specific ink, which also happens to be alkaline.

 

As we know, alkaline inks don't go well with cellulose acetate and cellulose nitrate (celluloid).

 

The "binde" on Pelikan pens is cellulose acetate, but on modern Pelikans, it is only wrapped around an inner body made of non-vegetal-based resin.

 

So, in practice, in modern Pelikans, there's no risk that the alkaline ink melts the pen or something, as the ink doesn't touch the binde.

 

Question: is this also true of the older M400s, the ones still marked W. Germany? Is the ink in contact with anything made of cellulose acetate/nitrate, or is the ink reservoir made of acrylic or other similar resin just like in modern ones?

 

 

[Claes]

>writes ... divinely when filled with one specific ink,

 

What ink would that be, please?

 

Have fun!
Claes in Lund, Sweden

 

[TassoBarbasso]

9 minutes ago, Claes said:

What ink would that be, please?

 

Pilot Tsuwairo Blue 🤤

[Claes]

Thank you. Isn't that a pigmented ink?

 

[TassoBarbasso]

41 minutes ago, Claes said:

Thank you. Isn't that a pigmented ink?

 

 

Yes, it is. I believe it's a nano-pigment.

[Bo Bo Olson]

5 hours ago, TassoBarbasso said:

which also happens to be alkaline.

 

As we know, alkaline inks don't go well with cellulose acetate and cellulose nitrate (celluloid).

In, I buy basically only Euro inks. I don't think I have to worry about alkaline inks.

If mistaken, do tell me.

Outside the 200's I stay away from the post '97 pens, having only 2. I have some 35 Pelikans.

 

What I know about the W. Germany Pelikan pens, the nibs are a slight hit springier than the '91-97 Germany nibs. One has to have both of the teardrop tipped nibs to feel the difference.

'98 and out the 400/600 became semi-nail and the 800 a nail, or later also in semi-nail. The 200 remained grand until @ 6 years ago when they ruined it by making it too, fat and blobby..

Bock's 1000 was semi-flex, when Pelikan took that last nib Back in House, it became a springy regular flex.

IMO any double ball nib writes with a fat and blobby line that if one is using a big enough magnifying glass do not have the clean line of semi-vintage and vintage nibs. 

 

5-6 years ago Pelikan ruined the grand teardrop tipped springy regular flex nib by making it double ball...at least they left it springy.

[stoen]

6 hours ago, TassoBarbasso said:

So, in practice, in modern Pelikans, there's no risk that the alkaline ink melts the pen or something, as the ink doesn't touch the binde.

 

Question: is this also true of the older M400s, the ones still marked W. Germany? Is the ink in contact with anything made of cellulose acetate/nitrate, or is the ink reservoir made of acrylic or other similar resin just like in modern ones?

Hi,

I’ve got all 400 class models up to 1982:

400, 400N, 400NN, 400NN M&K, M400.

AFAIK, all of them share the same barrel technology: acrylic resin reservoir with outer CA binde and ultrasound welded section. Piston is made of nylon (or elastomer before 1952). 
This is true for any Pelikan pen made between 1948 and 1982 (including post war 100N).

Therefore no inked part of those pens has contact with celluloide.

 

Hope this can help.

🙂

 

[Bo Bo Olson]

22 minutes ago, stoen said:

Therefore no inked part of those pens has contact with celluloide.

Great....not that I had alkaline inks on my buy list.

That was real foggy...read a long time ago and not boldly, that such alkaline inks exist....and I need to find a list of such....don't know exactly why, but in pens there is no superficial knowledge when it comes to inks.

[stoen]

8 hours ago, Bo Bo Olson said:

That was real foggy...

Yes, some of the early post ww2 ink views (100 & 100N) went foggy indeed. I’ve tested their material - no celluloid solvent works on them…

Hence, I came to a conclusion, although I wish I could have seen a statistically more relevant number…

[TassoBarbasso]

9 hours ago, stoen said:

Hi,

I’ve got all 400 class models up to 1982:

400, 400N, 400NN, 400NN M&K, M400.

AFAIK, all of them share the same barrel technology: acrylic resin reservoir with outer CA binde and ultrasound welded section. Piston is made of nylon (or elastomer before 1952). 
This is true for any Pelikan pen made between 1948 and 1982 (including post war 100N).

Therefore no inked part of those pens has contact with celluloide.

 

Hope this can help.

🙂

 

 

Thanks, this is great info! Do you know if this is the same for pens made up to 1992 (which is when they stopped using the W.Germany mark)? I'm assuming yes (why would they go back to using cellulose acetate in the 1980s-1990s if they had been using acrylic up to 1982?), but just want to be 100% sure.

[Claes]

I believe that we safely can say that most manufacturers would not sell an ink that would be unsafe to use in their own fountain pens. (Remember SuperChrome: "For use in Parker 51 and 21 only.")

 

So, one way to look at OP's question is to check the pH values of Pelikan's inks. (Per definition, "alkaline" equals pH greater than 7.) Using @InesF's brilliant charts [ref:https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mSWCRuy2QofZDOiqrwxnNDqp-MJNIFhOMyRc0qyNj9U/edit?pli=1&gid=0#gid=0] we find that three of Pelikan's inks are alkaline, while 21 are not. See screen dump above.

 

Have fun!

Claes in Lund, Sweden

 

[TassoBarbasso]

58 minutes ago, Claes said:

I believe that we safely can say that most manufacturers would not sell an ink that would be unsafe to use in their own fountain pens. (Remember SuperChrome: "For use in Parker 51 and 21 only.")

 

So, one way to look at OP's question is to check the pH values of Pelikan's inks. (Per definition, "alkaline" equals pH greater than 7.) Using @InesF's brilliant charts [ref:https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mSWCRuy2QofZDOiqrwxnNDqp-MJNIFhOMyRc0qyNj9U/edit?pli=1&gid=0#gid=0] we find that three of Pelikan's inks are alkaline, while 21 are not. See screen dump above.

 

Have fun!

Claes in Lund, Sweden

 

 

Thank you, this is great info, too.

[InesF]

1 hour ago, Claes said:

[...] brilliant [...]

  Thank you!  

[Bo Bo Olson]

I go down to only to Smoky Quartz now.

I was able to give away the half a bottle of 4001 Brilliant Black that I had for 15 years, to a noobie, whom I'm giving ink samples too.

The others, onyx, red, ruby & rose quartz were never of interest to me.

 

I never gave any thought to acidity of ink.

[mana]

Really interesting info, thanks to everyone who has contributed.

[stoen]

I still have something to add. At least some Pelikan 400 caps have been made of a material which reacts with etil acetate. 
I haven’t succeeded solvent welding them with etil acetate., though.

[TassoBarbasso]

@Stoen, do you happen to know if this construction (acrylic ink reservoir with cellulose acetate "wrap") was also used for the M400s after 1982? I.e., those up to 1992 (which is when they stopped using the W.Germany mark)?

 

I'm assuming yes (why would they go back to using cellulose acetate in the 1980s-1990s if they had been using acrylic up to 1982?), but just want to be 100% sure.

 

[stric75]

Over the years I’ve learned that the best inks for my pens are safety inks, primarily from Europe, and I tend to use those. I have some very nice old pens and I’d hate to ruin them with some inks. 

[OCArt]

What is a safety ink?

35 minutes ago, stric75 said:

Over the years I’ve learned that the best inks for my pens are safety inks, primarily from Europe, and I tend to use those. I have some very nice old pens and I’d hate to ruin them with some inks. 

 

[Bo Bo Olson]

MB, Waterman, Pelikan, Herbin are old classic inks.....

Could be, Parker QUINK.............In Germany about all I can find....hands on shopping, is what I don't care for, the dark gray called black by Parker.

Living here in Germany, I've not looked for Shaffer inks; but they were once safe inks, if they are still made.

 

Diamine makes so many inks...I'd trust all but Ancient Copper. (sort of noobie with them, having only 15, and outside the 4 of 5 glitter inks, most with in the last year). Diamine has been around for ages also.

deATRAMENTIS seems to be good inks....problem is he names the same inks three or four times. Hard to find just Purple, without delving into Wizards or folks caught wandering around in London Fog.