Confused: Stiff or Soft nibs for Monoline Cursive (Palmer)?

[Dominink]

As a beginner learning the Palmer method of Business Penmanship (Monoline Cursive without line variation), I have researched some conflicting information about which nib is best (counting in that this is a highly subjective matter, of course).

 

I gathered some of the pro/con arguments for each of both nib types I could find so far (this forum and reddit):

 

1.

On the one hand, some people say you should use stiffer pens, which give you more feeling of "contact" with the paper (= "feedback" I guess it is called?). This supposedly should give the beginning learner a better feeling of control and precision which is advantageous when learning the letterforms and arm movements of a Monoline Cursive from scratch.

As a beginner learning the arm (muscular) movement, you lack a lot of precision compared to the "learned" finger movement, so every additional precision coming from the pen is welcomed (although of course Palmer pros over time get more precision from their arm movements, but I am a greenhorn/beginner).

 

Thus this school of thought recommends stiffer nibs like Sailor 21k F / M-F or Platinum gold or very feedback-y Pilot nibs (like PO / Posting or an EF (hard) Pilot Falcon/Elabo). 

They also say stiffer nibs are less tiring to write with than softer nibs, because the feeling of control is somehow supposed to make the hand relax more? (I have to admit, I didn't quite understand that argument). 

They also say, because of the feeling of precision and control, it gives the hand security, thus psychologically allowing you to write faster with stiffer nibs.

 

2.

On the other hand, some people say with Monoline Cursive you should use a light hand, thus softer pens that glide across the page in a "buttery" fashion (think of Pilot gold Fines/Mediums) are said to be the best by that school of thought.

 

They also say softer nibs are less tiring than stiffer nibs to write with as they need less effort to write with, as the Palmer method with muscle movement is all about reducing/allieviating writing fatigue and finger cramps. Which is of course in contrast to what school of thought 1 (stiffer pens for Palmer method) says.

The "soft nibs for Palmer method" school of thought also say you write faster with softer nibs, because they glide effortless because they have less resistance on the paper.

 

Added information:

What is not in question for me is the nib size: I think Fine (or Extrafine) suits me best, since I tend to write medium-sized. I am practicing Palmer with a Rhodia ruled 7 mm, which "forces" me to write rather small, so Medium is too broad and it tends to not look very elegant in a 7 mm confined handwriting (might you please visually refer to the given example photograph below (sorry for the German!))

Also fine nibs allow me to see my mistakes more clearly, which is more frustrating 😄, but obviously ultimately more helpful for the learning pen(wo)man.

 

Question:

What are your (subjective) experiences?

Which kind of nibs (not nib width/size, but nib softness/stiffness) are better for 1) fast writing and 2) writing endurance?

 

Thank you for sharing, I value your human insights and experiences (I refrain from asking ChatGPT for this).

 

P.S.:

In the end I will have to test both myself, I want to buy a beautiful pen and already spent a lot on PO nib (will arrive soon), but fear I bought the wrong nib.

Unfortunately I live in a country where there are little opportunities to try out different pens before buying and I lack the funds to order like 10 pens from japan and then send 9 the "wrong" ones back.

[UpadhyayAbhinav]

Hi, I understand your dilemma, the problem here is that you are confusing stiffness with smoothness and consistency. There are many stiff nibs which glide effortlessly on a nice paper and write as soon as you touch the nib to the paper, no softness is needed for such an experience. However, like with all other things, there is a caveat, such well performing nibs can be a hit and a miss if there's not great quality control from the brand, especially the cheaper steel ones which are rarely hand tuned and tested before shipping. Mostly gold nibs are the ones that go through rigorous testing. A properly tuned and smoothened nib, albeit stiff, is in my opinion perfect for learning Palmer and almost all brands will give the necessary feedback in a fine nib that is required for control. If you don't want to go wrong, Pilot gold nib (Custom 74, Vanishing Point) or a Lamy gold nib (Studio, 2000) should work great for your requirement. With regard to steel nibs, German #6 nibs have a better consistency in my opinion than Japanese. For effortless writing I would suggest Jowo. The nibs that I have suggested here are great for fast writing and endurance both. If you would like to go down the rabbit hole further, the #9 nib in Kanwrite  Mammoth from India is an excellent nib, but it is a very huge nib in a very huge pen, so go through reviews of it before making up your mind.

[Claes]

Moinchen, Dominink!

 

Here are some interesting links regarding what was called "Schnurschrift" in Germany:

https://shop.kallipos.de/de/produkte/schnurzugfedern

https://www.feder-fuehrend.de/collections/redisfedern

 

MfG
Claes in Lund, Schweden

[Dominink]

Thank you very much for your replies!

As always, I am totally overthinking it and should get going with my handwriting practice instead of philosophizing about nibs! 😄

 

@UpadhyayAbhinav

Thank you!

An important insight that stiffness does not contradict smoothness! I hadn't thought about that.

It is reassuring to know that I can't do much wrong with a good gold nib. I do have nibs from Pilot (Custom 74 as you wrote, which writes beautifully, but a bit too broad for Palmer drills). I just ordered a Pilot CH 912 with the PO ( Posting ) nib and will try it out to see whether it fits the Palmer style. It is rather stiff, but said to be still smooth (becaue it is gold and made by Pilot), so this will be an interesting experience for me to make.

I have never heard of the brand Kanwrite, but this sounds interesting, I might try them out if I find a good offer here in Germany.

 

@Claes

Hallo Sverige! 😉 I didn't know about these nibs! Looks really interesting, they seem to be dip pens where you "re-fill" them by dipping them into my iroshizuku bottles when the ink runs dry?

This might be a good solution for home, for work and "on the go" I am rather looking for a classic fountain pen (with cartridge/converter in the best case).

[Claes]

Abends, @Dominink

 

>they seem to be dip pens

 

Correct.

 

>where you "re-fill" them by dipping them

 

Correct. But some of them have an "überfeder", where you place a drop of ink between the nib itself and the "überfeder", using a small brush, for instance. That is a trusty, clean method to keep ink flow relatively even between fillings.

 

> into my iroshizuku bottles...

 

Er... Dip nibs need inks having quite other properties than what fountain pen inks have.

 

MfG
Claes in Lund, Schweden

 

 

 

[AAAndrew]

Palmer was introduced when dip pens were the norm, and fountain pens were the exception, so you can use either. It's a matter of convenience, whether you want to write and dip, or just keep writing. 

 

Palmer, as with all monoline styles, does not require any flex. Flex is when the two tines of the nib spread when pressure is applied. This causes the line to swell and you get variation in the line from thicks to thins, which is the opposite of monoline, which, as the name implies, is a single width. 

 

For a monoline, whether dip or fountain, you need a stiff nib. "Stiff" means that the tines don't separate under normal pressure. 

 

As for the characteristics the original post was talking about, that refers to "feedback" (do you feel the paper, or is it like writing on glass with an ice cube). Feedback is a matter of preference. Regardless whether you like to have some feedback or you like it smooth, you should not be having to exert any pressure so the affect on your hand should be essentially the same. Neither should tire out your hand more than the other. 

 

In practice, I find that glass smooth nibs require more control, so I end up using more of the micromuscles in my hand and arm and thus get tired more quickly, but that may be my bad technique. I find that it is easier to keep some control of my pen when there is some feedback from the paper. But that is purely a personal preference. There are many folks who love the glass-smooth nib. 

 

And as for material, both steel and gold can be made smooth, because it's actually the same material tipping both nibs and only the tip touches the paper. Gold does not make a better "functioning" nib, but it does make a prettier one. Both gold and steel can be made to yield to pressure when pressed, despite some opinions that gold is better for this. But since you don't want any yielding to pressure, you want a stiff nib, than it all comes down to quality of the factory grind.

 

Some nib makers like to add some feedback to their nibs, some are more smooth. Which ones do which, I'm not the one to answer that, and I suspect it may change over time, or by pen style, or just by who was grinding the nibs that day in the factory. Regardless, if you find a pen you like, and you want less or more feedback, you can get a nib meister to adjust that pretty easily. 

 

And for fun, here's the certificate my grandmother earned in 1918 for her skill in the Palmer Method of Business Writing. What I always found funny about this is that the only examples of Palmer penmanship on the whole thing are the date and Palmer's signature on the bottom. 

 

[Dominink]

@AAAndrew

Thank you very much for your reply full of insights!

So nice for your grandmother to have achieved such a high standard of writing. I dream to do the same (not with a certificate, of course, nowadays), but it will take years to master it if you have to rely on your spare time besides job and everything.

 

So I will have to try out different nibs, it all comes down to this. I love the Pilot 743 FA nib and the Medium from the 74, but for quick writing I find it somehow uncomfortable, although it is very comfortable if I take my time and write slowly, in large letters (difficult to explain).

So I will wait for the Posting (PO) nib Pilot to arrive and test this. Maybe I will soon have the unexpected chance to try out a Sailor 1911 L nib, whose 21k nibs are said to have more feedback than the smooth Pilots.

But the most important thing is to practice, practice, practice! Then, hopefully, some future day I can also write as neatly as the signature on the certificate.

 

Also I really like your avatar/profile picture! I love this pre-cartoon-era drawing style!

[InesF]

Hi @Dominink, guten Morgen nach Berlin!

 

After some 50+ years of "intuitive" handwriting, I recently had a closer look at the Palmer method practise book. Unfortunately, I didn't find much news there, except for one of the preparative exercises: how to lean the weight of your arm on the finger mussels (close to your elbow) while keeping the hand palm laying on and moving over the paper surface without any pressure. This part was key for me. With the "intuitive" writing I did this sometimes and at other times not, always wondering why my handwriting looks nice only at "random" times.

 

What has this to do with the nib choice?

A lot!

Moving the hand palm without pressure and with close to zero friction allows to control the force your nib presses on the paper. If you have this control, your nib can (and maybe should) be flexible - with or without line variation. If you can't control the pressure, you do best with a stiff nib - this can be intentional when sitting at a well adjusted desk or unintentional when writing in the train, for example.

 

The nib size depends on the size of your handwriting. Based on the image in your first post, the fine nib would be preferable. But!, you may increase the size of your handwriting, especially the size of your minuscules, if you use a nib with broader lines. With some experience, the adaptation of the letter size can be intuitive during the first few letters.

 

Good luck for your further experiments,

InesF

[Dominink]

Servus @InesF and greetings ins Nachbarland! 😀

 

Exactly as you said, with Palmer I am learning muscular movement, relying on my arm & shoulder muscles instead of the finger & hand muscles like "normal" everyday German handwriting. This of course will take years to master, but I have already gotten used to the muscular movement so far that it now seems more naturally than the 40 years of ingrained finger movement I used all my life.

• With the Palmer method, I only rest the "fleshy" forearm part beneath the elbow on the desk and let the palm "hover" above the page almost parallel (see images). The only contact of hand & paper is ring finger and pinkie (finger nails or first joints).
• With the "normal" (everyday German) way you lay the side of the palm on the paper, write the characters by moving/contracting the finger muscles, then lift the palm, set it down further to the right and continue writing.

 

So, the Palmer method's hand & arm position allows for an extended movement range (your pivot point is the fleshy forearm part instead of the wrist), more "flow" and fluent movements and less fatigue & cramps in finger & hand, thus faster writing is possible (which is why I am learning the Palmer method in the first place).

 

I think my writing style is inbetween a light and a heavy hand, with regards to pressure exerted on the pen.

However, the Palmer hand position clearly allows for less pressure, as you also pointed out.

But, of course, the level of control needed, I am far from that and am only making small progress day by day.

 

Also, whilst learning a new kind of handwriting, I am of course "malleable", so I will use this opportunity to also learn how to write with less (close to no) pressure.

 

I really like your idea of practicing the drills & letters with a stiffer nib, and then having a softer nib for actually writing (Schönschreiben) with the Palmer method.

 

My Custom Heritage 912 with PO (Posting) nib just arrived today and it feels really hard (I guess that's what more experienced fountain pen users call a "nail").

I will see if it fits for practicing purposes – a great bonus is the very fine line: It makes it easier to see the tiniest mistake in letterform.

 

I do have a Pilot FA nib, which is sort of semi-flexible, but haven't tried it for Palmer yet. Since Palmer is a monoline cursive, usually there is no need for line variation, it would actually slow you down slightly (defeating its purpose of a fast/speedy handwriting technique).

 

What is odd, however, is that German words don't look as good when written in Palmer, at least in my eyes. I cannot pinpoint it, but it has to do with more Capital letters (since Capital letters are more vertical than small letters that "breaks" the flowing rhythm of Palmer in English with fewer Capital letters) and German letter combinations also somehow look a bit less elegant than English (but that could be because I am used to only English examples of Palmer, since there is not comparable writing technique in German (Kurrent and Sütterlin are not exactly fast-writing business penmanship and Steno is another level completely)).

[Stompie]

[Stompie]

The 5 pack just arrived. I mixed up the component parts just for fun! They are Jinhao 619 pens from an Amazon dealer Erofa - I have purchased a number of pens from Erofa over the years and they are a good dealer.

 

 

[Dominink]

@Stompie Beautiful writing!

Thank you for this very creative reply. So it turns out stiffer nibs are better for practicing monoline cursive like Palmer, which might explain why I prefer my finer Pilot pens for practicing the Palmer drills and sample words.

 

I also have a Lamy Safari (albeit in Medium, which writes very broad), which is a very great, reliable writer, however I just like writing with my Pilots just that wee bit more. This is, I suppose, purely psychological fallacy (or a Placebo effect called "it cost more, so it must be the better writing tool"), which is of course not factually true, nevertheless it works for me and keeps me reaching for the Pilots, filling me with joy and doing my drills - which in the end benefits my handwriting practice.

[Stompie]

[Dominink]

@Stompie

May I ask, where did you learn your monoline cursive? Did you use special books to learn?

[Stompie]

I watch what others are doing and adjust my hand writing accordingly as well as according to the pen/implement I am using

[welch]

Both Palmer and Zaner-Blauser were aimed at business writing. The goal was to be quick and clear and regular. Best I remember, Palmer says that your aim is not artistry but a type of writing that is easy to read. That would rule out any sort of flexible nib.

 

A few years ago, I helped AAAndrew research some court cases around one of the early US steel pen makers. All but one of the briefs were written in something that looked like the Palmer or Zaner-Blauser characters posted above the blackboards in my classes in the late 1950s and early '60s. The legal scriveners around 1860 wrote as precisely as a typewriter did in 1960. 

 

Palmer was taught in US public schools right down until schools quit teaching hand-writing. It seems that flexible nibs and flourish-style  writing were minor-league variants. My parents, schooled in the 1920s and '30s, wrote in a clear Palmer hand. Further, fountain-pen makers must have known their market: look through "vintage" pens and you'll find that flexible nibs are rare compared to stiffer nibs. For me, the perfect pen is the Parker 51 aerometric, or the modern Lamy 2000.

[Dominink]

@welch

Thank you for your insightful reply with historical facts! 

Interesting, that they used Palmer or similar business penmanship in court documents back then!

 

What Palmer wrote is exactly what I am aiming for learning his method: I want to write faster.

Not calligraphy, not art, just advancing my handwriting speed so I can spend less time on the keyboard and more on a notepad (as a positive side effect saving my eyes from too much screen strain). Of course I will never be as fast with a pen than with the keyboard, but for private and leisure purposes that does not matter so much.

Also, I am slowly adapting to muscular movement after 2 months of daily practice (however only 15-20 minutes), which is really beneficial already. I can feel how it allows for better endurance, putting less stress on the finger and wrist muscles than the "modern" finger movement I learned.

 

As for the soft/flex nib debate: I did get a Pilot Falcon with a nib that provides for some line variation. This is for my German shorthand practice, which requires line variation. 

While the Pilot Falcon is a great writer for German shorthand, it is a bit "too" soft for rigorous Palmer drills and practice. So this thread has confirmed my suspicions that a stiffer nib might be best for Palmer (at least for learning & practicing, which will be years until I master it).

 

Funny that you mention the Lamy 2000. Although I live in Germany and wrote with Lamys from elementary school on (but never after school until recently), I never cared much about the 2000 (well, I "seriously" got into fountain pens just this summer).

I always thought it was a very soft nib, which would be detrimental to business penmanship, where rigid "unforgiving" nibs are needed (preferably super-fine so you can see your mistakes and correct them)? Or am I confusing softness and stiffness again? (Sorry for the rookie mistakes, I just got into FP this year).

 

 

[welch]

1 minute ago, Dominink said:

@welch

Thank you for your insightful reply with historical facts! 

Interesting, that they used Palmer or similar business penmanship in court documents back then!

 

What Palmer wrote is exactly what I am aiming for learning his method: I want to write faster.

Not calligraphy, not art, just advancing my handwriting speed so I can spend less time on the keyboard and more on a notepad (as a positive side effect saving my eyes from too much screen strain). 

Also, I am slowly adapting to muscular movement after 2 months of daily practice (however only 15-20 minutes), which is really beneficial already.

 

As for the soft/flex nib debate: I did get a Pilot Falcon with a nib that provides for some line variation. This is for my German shorthand practice, which requires line variation. 

While it is a great writer for German shorthand, it is a bit "too" soft for rigorous Palmer drills and practice. So this thread has confirmed my suspicions a stiffer nib might be best for Palmer (at least for learning & practicing, which will be years until I master it).

 

Funny that you mention the Lamy 2000. Although I live in Germany and wrote with Lamys from elementary school on, I never cared much about the 2000 (I "seriously" got into fountain pens just this summer).

I always thought it was a very soft nib, which would be detrimental to business penmanship? Or am I confusing softness and stiffness again? (Sorry for the rookie mistakes, I just got into FP this year).

 

 

 

Dislike the L2000? Try an aerometric Parker 51, greatest fountain pen from the "golden age" when a fountain pen was the main personal writing instrument -- aside from a pencil, which was used for jotting notes. A cleaned up P-51 will sell for anywhere from about $100 - $150, so roughly the same in Euros. I;ve bought my '51s right from EBay, usually choosing pens from sellers who give signs that they know about the pen. Generally, the aerometric Parker 51 will write as soon as you flush it. The nib might need to be tuned, but that's usually all.

[Penguincollector]

    When I was learning Palmer script in elementary school (Florida, late 1980s), we used pencils at first, the rest of the class used Papermate stick ballpoints, and I had a Parker 45 Fine and later, a Vector in Medium, which was too wide and was replaced with a Fine. Those nibs are very stiff and should be pretty easy to find and still affordable. A Parker Jotter might also do the trick.