How are Pelikan fountain pens and nibs to write with?

[PhiloPlume]

7 hours ago, USG said:

My first Pelikan M800 medium wrote like a western broad.

My second Pelikan M800 medium was a western medium.

My third Pelikan M800 fine was a western fine.

I just found a topic here at FPN called "Seeking Pelikan Extra-Fine Writing Sample"

 

It is dated 2013.  There is a writing sample for a m800 EF and it writes finer than my one month old m800 EF that I just bought! And it looks like he wrote them on regular paper. I tested mine on Clairfontaine Triomphe paper and HP Premium 32# and it does write finer (as expected -but not much! Mine does not write as fine as his example for sure) on the Clairfontaine.  I am getting used it to it. It is a very comfortable and good looking pen so I will keep using it!

 

But I guess I am more of a Japanese pen and nib fan, especially Pilots Fine Points (I do like my Sailor 1911L pens too, and the Platinum EF I have).

 

Thanks

 

 

 

[Lithium466]

You may want to try a high surface tension ink. My M405 EF is similar to my Sailor 1911L MF in term of line width.

[Bo Bo Olson]

If you started with Japanese pens.....all western nibs will be too fat....in Japanese nibs are marked a width narrow because of the tiny printed Japanese scrip.

They are  a whole size. Ie, a Japanese M = a Western F... Japanese is great if you are a printer.

 

If started with writing western cursive Euro & old time American were made for wide flowing cursive, you will find the Japanese nibs....mismarked....which they are if a Japanese F = a western EF.

And from Charts I've seen, a Japanese B is at best a M or MB

 

..............................Pelikan

The 1989-'97 800's nibs are tear drop tipped = written cleaner line than the modern double ball nib.

The modern fat and blobby double ball nib, often if one uses a big enough magnifying glass...has a slight woolly line (fuzzy)............you can not use a 10X or better loup in then, every line is woolly.

 

The '98 to now 800....400, 600 are double ball. So is the 1000. The 200 was tear drop tipped from 1985 to about 5-7 years ago, when Pelikan screwed up a grand springy tear drop nib, by making it double ball.

A ball on top and the bottom of the nib....so ball point users can still hold a fountain pen wrong, like a ball point and be able to write.

A fountain pen should be held after the big index knuckle, not before like a ball point.

 

The 1989-97 800's nib is thinner than the regular 200/400/600. (same size but the 400 is made of better palstic)

In 1997 the 600 stopped being a standzard sized pen like the 200/400, and became a slightly thicker girthed medium-long pen.

Once the 600 was the same size but more deluxe than the 400, but in 1998, became the medium-large pen it now is.

The 800 is and always was a large pen.

In 1998 Pelikan ruied thier very good tear dropped nib for hamfisted ball point users, double ball.

The 400/600 became semi-nail, and the 800 a nail.

All three had been nice springy regular flex nibs bdore that imfamous date.

The 200 and the 2010 or so 1000  are still springy regular flex.

 

To Pelikan spec's....Bock made those double ball stiffer nibs, but from '98 to @ 2010 Bock's 1000's nibs were semi-flex. I tested one at my B&M, and it was semi-flex...having taken a semi-flex pen with me for the test. Only after I found out there was a difference between the Bock semi-flex 1000 and the springy Pelikan 1000's nib; did I understand so many folks saying...no, not semi-flex....but springy.

We were both right but we were talking pears and apples.

 

By @ 2010 Pelikan had taken their nibs back in house.....and everyone was ever so happy....thinking they'd get the old time great nibs back.

That costs repair money that would flow into the manager's bonus....Bock made Pelikan's nibs to Pelikan's exact specs...so the nibs remained the same....poor crurd from before.

 

I stay away from modern fat and blobby double ball nibs, or get my newer 200's in EF, for editing. I buy old cheaper used pens...vintage ('50-65), or semi-vintage ('82-97) with the 1/2 a width thinner nib.

All in all IMO a better nib than modern.

[Sailor Kenshin]

The only 'ordinary' Pelikan nib I don't have is M.  I'm waiting for the right one.

[PhiloPlume]

8 hours ago, Lithium466 said:

ou may want to try a high surface tension ink. My M405 EF is similar to my Sailor 1911L MF in term of line width.

What is that?  Who makes it?

[nm4]

19 hours ago, PhiloPlume said:

I just found a topic here at FPN called "Seeking Pelikan Extra-Fine Writing Sample"

 

It is dated 2013.  There is a writing sample for a m800 EF and it writes finer than my one month old m800 EF that I just bought! And it looks like he wrote them on regular paper. I tested mine on Clairfontaine Triomphe paper and HP Premium 32# and it does write finer (as expected -but not much! Mine does not write as fine as his example for sure) on the Clairfontaine.  I am getting used it to it. It is a very comfortable and good looking pen so I will keep using it!

 

But I guess I am more of a Japanese pen and nib fan, especially Pilots Fine Points (I do like my Sailor 1911L pens too, and the Platinum EF I have).

 

Thanks

 

 

 

I have consistently found the Pelikan EF nibs to be a disappointment.  Not only are they not very fine I’ve had a few that ran dry and one that ran too wet and ended up being wider than a fine Pelican nib.
 

 Ironically the EFs on their steel nibs appear to be better than those on the gold nibbled pens (in my admittedly limited experience).  
 

N

[carlos.q]

I believe this is all a matter of personal taste. Many years ago, when I came over the ballpoint world and first started using FPs, I wanted the finest nibs possible. Nowadays I prefer medium and broad nibs on my Pelikan pens although I'm also warming up to OB nibs. I have a vintage 120 desk set that has a painfully thin EF nib that sits unused on my desk. To each their own, I guess. 😎

[Bo Bo Olson]

5 hours ago, nm4 said:

Ironically the EFs on their steel nibs appear to be better than those on the gold nibbled pens (in my admittedly limited experience).  

Pre '98 the gold nibs were as good as the steel ones....

 

In '98 the gold nibs outside the then new 1000 became stiffer. The once springy regular flex 400/600 became semi-nails, the 800 a nail. Less repair. ((The 1000 went from being semi-flex when Bock made them to being just springy regular flex when Pelikan took it's nibs back In House.

 

Everyone was so happy, thinking they were going to get the old nibs back....no.

 

Bock had made Pelikan nibs to the exact spec's Pelikan gave them....stiffer, double ball fat and blobby, so ball point users wouldn't have to learn how to hold a fountain pen.

 

5-7 years ago, Pelikan ruined the tear drop tipped grand 200's nib by going double ball. I have to go EF in hopes I won't see the woolly line of a double ball tip.

Tear drop tipping wrote with a clean line.

 

I suggest buying old pre-double ball pens.

 

Then there are the clean line of the factroy stubbed semi-flex nibs of 1950-65.

A flair nib that gives you nice classy line variation with no work.

 

I do cheat, I use a 1 1/2"/2.8cm thick magnifying glass to look at how an ink and nib dance on a piece of paper. And I am so against woolly lines, I have invented a spec sheet for woolly lines.

 

 

As Carlos said, one's taste changes. I came back to fountain pens after 40 years inthe Ball Point Desert, and went wide B, OB, BB, & OBB. F was just a holder. Now I prefer M.

 

If I'm using two toned shading inks, I like the springy  older  Pelikan nibs, they are not as wet as the semi-flex.

Pelikan makes the dryest inks....the 4001 series, so has a wet nib. If you put a wet ink in it......the Jamestown Flood.

 

[USG]

On 12/31/2024 at 1:39 PM, Lithium466 said:

You may want to try a high surface tension ink. My M405 EF is similar to my Sailor 1911L MF in term of line width.

 

23 hours ago, PhiloPlume said:

What is that?  Who makes it?

 

'High surface tension' needs a fuller explanation.  I've seen inks that stick in the end of a converter and don't want to flow.  Some of them look watery like they should slosh around but they don't. I've had thicker inks behave the same way. I have 'dry' inks like Pelikan that don't behave like that. 

 

I've had a few people explain what's going on but I still don't have a full understanding of it.

[PhiloPlume]

13 hours ago, nm4 said:

I have consistently found the Pelikan EF nibs to be a disappointment.  Not only are they not very fine I’ve had a few that ran dry and one that ran too wet and ended up being wider than a fine Pelican nib.
 

 Ironically the EFs on their steel nibs appear to be better than those on the gold nibbled pens (in my admittedly limited experience).  

Thank you for validating what I found out!  I bet you are right about the steel nibs probably writing finer than the gold nibs.

[PhiloPlume]

7 hours ago, Bo Bo Olson said:

If I'm using two toned shading inks, I like the springy  older  Pelikan nibs, they are not as wet as the semi-flex.

Pelikan makes the dryest inks....the 4001 series, so has a wet nib. If you put a wet ink in it......the Jamestown Flood.

You know, you just gave me an idea.  First, I am going to buy a 4001 ink and see how it writes.  Not why you said "so has a wet nib" after that.

 

Since this EF is writing like a medium (and sometimes seems it is writing even wider now since I have been using it a lot - but that could be the paper), I might as well try a shimmering ink or similar in it!  Because since I write mostly with EF and Fine nibs (sometimes medium), all those inks really do is make what I write darker and not look like the color they are supposed to be most like.

 

Thanks!

 

[nm4]

When I think about it i feel like Pelikan does a good job grinding the nib but doesn't really optimize the flow...somehow most of the Japanese F/EF demonstrate masterful flow control that prevents hard starts but doesn't get so wet that the line width increases. 

 

Based on this speculation you may be onto something by trying drier inks.  Let us know how it turns out!

 

N

[Bo Bo Olson]

A dry ink like 4001, will make a normal pen, even Pelikan,  write up to 1/2 a width narrower...a good slick paper like Clairefontaine Triomphe or Rhoda, will also make a nib write up to 1/2 a width narrower.

So with the dry ink and slick paper you can get a full width narrower.

A wet ink and common 80g copy paper, a full width wider.

 

Converse, Waterman made a wet ink, so made skinny nibs. There were flame wars between skinny Waterman nibs and swap out Pelikan nibs......before the Japanese pens became main stream. ... Suddenly no more skinny nib bragging from Waterman fans.

I have a Waterman Mann 200 F that ='s my Pelikan 200 EF.

With that in mind, my guess is because the Japanese make super skinny nibs, their ink should be wet.

[Lithium466]

On 1/1/2025 at 3:47 AM, PhiloPlume said:

What is that?  Who makes it?

 

8 hours ago, USG said:

 

'High surface tension' needs a fuller explanation.  I've seen inks that stick in the end of a converter and don't want to flow.  Some of them look watery like they should slosh around but they don't. I've had thicker inks behave the same way. I have 'dry' inks like Pelikan that don't behave like that. 

 

I've had a few people explain what's going on but I still don't have a full understanding of it.

I wouldn't be able to explain anything, but here is a good thread about it. 
Clic here to access the latest updated chart  

 

Straying away from the Pelikan topic (as I only have one and don't really intend to buy some more for now), I noticed not all the pens react the same to different inks with various behaviours. Sometimes you look at data above and think it will be a match made in heaven, but...no. There's more than meet the eye.

[Lithium466]

7 hours ago, PhiloPlume said:

You know, you just gave me an idea.  First, I am going to buy a 4001 ink and see how it writes.  Not why you said "so has a wet nib" after that.

 

Since this EF is writing like a medium (and sometimes seems it is writing even wider now since I have been using it a lot - but that could be the paper), I might as well try a shimmering ink or similar in it!  Because since I write mostly with EF and Fine nibs (sometimes medium), all those inks really do is make what I write darker and not look like the color they are supposed to be most like.

 

Thanks!

 

I had good success with Lamy blue in my M405. I dislike Pelikan 4001 royal blue even more but I have a bottle so I will add that to my list of things to try in 2025  

And then since I wasn't smart and bought the xx5 model, rhodium or something silver and shiny plated, I'm scared to try to grind the nib myself (and damage the plating on the side of the nib). Duh moment.

 

Speaking of shimmer inks, I too thought that Edelstein Golden Lapis would work well, but it clogged the M405 in record time, like a few lines only. That said there are some less temperamental shimmer inks out there.

[Bo Bo Olson]

2 hours ago, Lithium466 said:

I too thought that Edelstein Golden Lapis would work well, but it clogged the M405 in record time, like a few lines only.

I had no problems, even found out how to make Golden Sands. I was not satisfied with, tilt to see glitter, when filled from the top of a shaken bottle...immediately.

 

 I'd not had clogging at all, from any of my 6-7 glitter inks. I mostly use my Pelikans, in I have the most of them.

To get more glitter....worked well with Golden Lapis..........

Shake the bottle, let it start settling some half a minute or more, and fill from the bottom. I was using a Pelikan, don't know right now which, in I have 35. It gave me Golden Sands, no need to tilt to see.

 

Diamine Arctic Blue gave good no tilt glitter. Fill from the top like normal. I really like that ink.

 

The other 4 Diamine glitter inks I have didn't improve from shake, wait and fill from the bottom. They are tilt to see the glitter.

 

I don't worry about left over glitter, in I find a similar non glitter ink and use that to clean out the remains.

[Azulado]

High surface tension inks have been mentioned as a possible solution for those who want a finer stroke. These inks spread less, as Ines F. explains very well in her essays on inks. However, an ink with high surface tension can flow well and also be lubricated, which would help a fine nib to glide better. In short, it is worth looking at the characteristics separately. 
Pelikan 4001 royal blue ink works perfectly well in Pelikan pens, but it does not preclude that there may be inks that work better, something that also has a subjective component.

 

[PhiloPlume]

13 hours ago, nm4 said:

When I think about it i feel like Pelikan does a good job grinding the nib but doesn't really optimize the flow...somehow most of the Japanese F/EF demonstrate masterful flow control that prevents hard starts but doesn't get so wet that the line width increases. 

 

Based on this speculation you may be onto something by trying drier inks.  Let us know how it turns out!

 

N

Believe it or not, I woke up this morning thinking the same thing.  I do not have a caliper or micrometer but the size of the nib on this pen doesn't look any wider than one of my EF or Fine nib pens that write like what I think is how an EF or F nib should write like.  There is probably more ink coming out of the pen than those.

 

A drier ink like Pelikan 4001?  What else?

 

Thanks!

[PhiloPlume]

6 hours ago, Bo Bo Olson said:

A dry ink like 4001, will make a normal pen, even Pelikan,  write up to 1/2 a width narrower...a good slick paper like Clairefontaine Triomphe or Rhoda, will also make a nib write up to 1/2 a width narrower.

So with the dry ink and slick paper you can get a full width narrower.

A wet ink and common 80g copy paper, a full width wider.

 

Converse, Waterman made a wet ink, so made skinny nibs. There were flame wars between skinny Waterman nibs and swap out Pelikan nibs......before the Japanese pens became main stream. ... Suddenly no more skinny nib bragging from Waterman fans.

I have a Waterman Mann 200 F that ='s my Pelikan 200 EF.

With that in mind, my guess is because the Japanese make super skinny nibs, their ink should be wet.

 

What started as sort of a whining session from me really has turned out to be something very educational for me!  This is cool! 🙂

[Sailor Kenshin]

Some of the driest inks I've ever used were blue blacks: Monteverde BB is one example.