This is Italic, right?

[PhiloPlume]

2 hours ago, dms525 said:

I do admire true "calligraphy," but my own aspiration is to improve my italic handwriting.

I am learning Copperplate (not a fan of Spencerian - the shades make it look ugly and illegible to me) but my heart really is in fine italic writing after all.

 

Do you know how many people I have showed Copperplate and Spencerian samples to and was told that they can't read it?  None with italic.  But, all wedding, dinner, reception invitations are almost all written in Copperplate and some Spencerian.  I guess someone has to be "trained" to read both such as cursive now since it is not taught much in schools these days (Getty-Dubay are so right on with their book "Write Now" which saved me, and their italic book which is based on Lloyd Reynolds). hehe

[dms525]

2 hours ago, PhiloPlume said:

 

nice!  I wish I didn't spend so much money on F-C pens and nibs only to finally admit that they do not exactly write like I want to write Italic.  As in the sample I have posted here previously, especially the original one up top.  The fine cursive-italic still writes too large for me and since they are a finer nib, not very smooth.  Not bad though!  It is hard to write small like in Lloyd Reynold's student who wrote "Written Letters" (?). I think her writing is perfect, although a little "thick".  I think the samples were written larger and reduced for print.

 

If I found an italic pen and nib that would do 2mm letters like you posted, that would be great (because my writing would probably end up a little larger)!  I will maybe buy one or two more fountain pens for italic writing and that is it since I spent so much on F-C stuff and ended up not quite what I want to write like.   #2 and #3 in my matrix would be my dream besides what the original screenshot.  On more of a slant like #2.  #1 and 4 would be what I would like to do for a "living" 🙂

 

Thanks!

 

-paul

 

Note that your F-C pens take JoWo nibs, and those are easily swapped. Maybe what you should do is order JoWo nibs ground to your exact specifications and use your F-C pens with them. Look at fpnibs dot com in Spain. Pablo does amazing italic grinds. Steel or gold. Your choice.

 

David

[PhiloPlume]

10 hours ago, dms525 said:

Note that your F-C pens take JoWo nibs, and those are easily swapped. Maybe what you should do is order JoWo nibs ground to your exact specifications and use your F-C pens with them. Look at fpnibs dot com in Spain. Pablo does amazing italic grinds. Steel or gold. Your choice.

Yes David!!  That is right!!!  I will look at your suggestions and try to nail down what I really want for crisp, sharp italic writing like the examples I posted.  It doesn't have to be exactly fluid cursive.  I don't mind taking my time to write something.  More fun! 🙂

 

Thanks!!!!

[PhiloPlume]

Hi,

 

Maybe it is just me. But the F-C medium cursive-italic nib isn't very "sharp" (probably the ink is playing a part).  I did not take my time writing these examples, btw.  Phrases are from the examples from the Sheila Waters book I posted earlier.

[dms525]

5 hours ago, PhiloPlume said:

Hi,

 

Maybe it is just me. But the F-C medium cursive-italic nib isn't very "sharp" (probably the ink is playing a part).  I did not take my time writing these examples, btw.  Phrases are from the examples from the Sheila Waters book I posted earlier.

 

Some one pointed out that the appearance of writing depends on equal parts pen, ink and paper. Of course, this posits the writer as a constant, but that is obviously a big factor.

 

My experience with F-C nibs suggests they are on the dry side. But, while some nibs seem to write beautifully with a wide range of inks, many are terribly fussy. I have many pens for which I have had to try 3 or 4 inks before I found one that worked the way I wanted the nib to write. 

 

Paper makes a huge difference. I haven't used Hammerhill paper for calligraphy. Isn't it usually made for copy machines and printers? If so, it is going to decrease text crispness a lot. I strongly recommend a more fountain pen friendly brand - Rhodia, Clairefontaine, Tomoe River, Maruman MD are among my personal favorites.

 

As for your letter forms, they are nice and legible but not italic. If you really want to develop a good italic hand, you need to be a real taskmaster with yourself until you have truly set italic letter forms in muscle memory. Otherwise, you will continue to battle deviations from your goal already stored in muscle memory. Otherwise known as "bad habits." Once you have this mastery, you can relax and develop a personal informal italic hand that is still calligraphic. See the letter I posted yesterday as an example. This man's personal informal italic hand is simply marvelous, IMO.

 

Happy writing!

 

David

[PhiloPlume]

1 hour ago, dms525 said:

As for your letter forms, they are nice and legible but not italic. If you really want to develop a good italic hand, you need to be a real taskmaster with yourself until you have truly set italic letter forms in muscle memory. Otherwise, you will continue to battle deviations from your goal already stored in muscle memory. Otherwise known as "bad habits." Once you have this mastery, you can relax and develop a personal informal italic hand that is still calligraphic. See the letter I posted yesterday as an example. This man's personal informal italic hand is simply marvelous, IMO.

 

Thanks!  I will go back to square one or so, but I want to use a more edged and more crisp nib than the F-C CI ones.  I am looking at FP Nibs but don't see anything about custom grinds or nibs like that yet.

 

>This man's personal informal italic hand is simply marvelous, IMO.

 

Yes, but it looks like handwriting to me with a regular pen.  Not anything like the examples I posted earlier.

 

-pw

[Stompie]

You can try using micromesh to sharpen up your nibs. A lot of calligraphers do that even with dip pen nibs. Before and after use 5 or so swipes across micromesh keeps the tip nice and sharp.

I turn a lot of my chinese pens into italic nibs and then I keep them sharp using micromesh. I also use it to sharpen up my extra fine normal nibs, it is a great tool to keep nearby all the time - it also helps with pocket knives 🙂

[PhiloPlume]

7 hours ago, Stompie said:

You can try using micromesh to sharpen up your nibs. A lot of calligraphers do that even with dip pen nibs. Before and after use 5 or so swipes across micromesh keeps the tip nice and sharp.

I just bought some Stompie!!!  I was going to try one on a calligraphy nib or two.  I found a video on how to get rid of baby's bottom using MicroMesh.  Need to find it again.  Don't want to sand the wrong way.

[PhiloPlume]

On 10/20/2024 at 10:35 PM, dms525 said:

Note that your F-C pens take JoWo nibs, and those are easily swapped. Maybe what you should do is order JoWo nibs ground to your exact specifications and use your F-C pens with them. Look at fpnibs dot com in Spain. Pablo does amazing italic grinds. Steel or gold. Your choice.

I have been exchanging emails with Pablo.  I have to keep asking him specific questions in emails again and again.  Now he says "

Yes, my Italics are Scrips Italics, not Cursive Italic.

You can see writing samples and try our App."

 

I found the page for #6 JOWO nibs but can't yet find the Scrips Italics he is mentioning. Looks like I have to select regrind instead of just adding a #6 JOWO Scripts Italic fine nib to my basket? Not that I want a gold nib, but from this page I am not sure what to select! https://www.fpnibs.com/products/jowo-6-14k-nib-unit

 

 Don't know what the app is about but I am using a PC, not a phone.

 

Never mind David - He just replied:

"

Here you will see the samples: https://www.fpnibs.com/pages/regrinding

When you are in a product page, you will find drop down menus. Select the tip size you want first, then the Regrind Italic in the menu. Finally add the product to the cart.

Best Regards,
Pablo Carrasco"

 

 

 

[PhiloPlume]

On 10/20/2024 at 10:35 PM, dms525 said:

Note that your F-C pens take JoWo nibs, and those are easily swapped. Maybe what you should do is order JoWo nibs ground to your exact specifications and use your F-C pens with them. Look at fpnibs dot com in Spain. Pablo does amazing italic grinds. Steel or gold. Your choice.

Hi David!

 

I just ordered a Fine and Medium straight Italic (not cursive italic) JOWO #6 nib from Pablo at fpnibs in Spain!  I am excited!! I will use the proper paper this time to show you how my writing is with them.  Although Jake Weidmann uses Hammermill 28# and others use HP Premium #32, at least for testing.

 

Thanks!

 

-paul

[dms525]

3 hours ago, PhiloPlume said:

Hi David!

 

I just ordered a Fine and Medium straight Italic (not cursive italic) JOWO #6 nib from Pablo at fpnibs in Spain!  I am excited!! I will use the proper paper this time to show you how my writing is with them.  Although Jake Weidmann uses Hammermill 28# and others use HP Premium #32, at least for testing.

 

Thanks!

 

-paul

Look forward to finding how you like the formal italic grinds from fpnibs.

 

The Hammermill and HP papers may be fine. I just have no personal experience with them for fountain pen writing.

 

David

[PhiloPlume]

3 hours ago, dms525 said:

The Hammermill and HP papers may be fine

Most the books and videos I study for Copperplate and penmanship are using HP Premium 32# for dip pens and fountain pens.  The flourishing class from Jake Weidmann is about 10 years old.  $20 for 500 sheets!  Both are really smooth and don't feather or bleed through. I also use both for color laser and inkjet printing.

 

I do have some Rhodia, Clairefontaine and another fountain pen friendly brand or two and I really need to try them again to see if I can tell if there is much of a difference.

 

I too cannot wait to try use a real italic nib, especially in those sizes, instead of a rounded italic nib. I did write with a speedball and C-2 (?) nib that Lloyd Reynold's student who wrote Letter's suggested and used for the book ("Written Letters").  I wrote almost like she did with it, just larger, when taking my time.

 

David, my Italic is VERY out of practice and therefore am making mistakes and have lost some muscle memory.  I was getting very close to the books I used for training but I was using the F-C rounded cursive-italic and a couple of different stubs (and the F-C Music nib your suggested in the beginning). Both, as you know, have been ground and rounded for the general public! 

 

I really need to spend time *every* day writing italic!!  But I am now using a flexible pen learning Copperplate.

 

Thanks!

 

-paul

[PhiloPlume]

On 10/20/2024 at 10:35 PM, dms525 said:

Note that your F-C pens take JoWo nibs, and those are easily swapped. Maybe what you should do is order JoWo nibs ground to your exact specifications and use your F-C pens with them. Look at fpnibs dot com in Spain. Pablo does amazing italic grinds. Steel or gold. Your choice.

Hi David!

 

I just received my #6 JOWO fine scrips and scrips medium from Pablo directly from Spain and screwed the fine one into a F-C Model 50 Grandis chassis and it fit like a glove!  And, although I only wrote a few test words from Lloyd Reynolds book, I do notice a difference in sharpness but it wrote pretty smoothly and did not grab the HP 30# premium paper.

 

The tips on these are curved downwards similar to a Pilot Falcon nib but squared off.  I am wondering if I should be writing differently than with a cursive-italic nib from F-C.

 

So - what is your favorite black ink to use for writing italic in a fountain pen?  I am going to use an F-C body for now.

 

Now I want to try the other manufacturers you mentioned earlier in this thread.

 

Thanks!  It is going to take me a little while to get my italic muscle memory back from learning Copperplate with various flexible nibs.  Then I will post some test words or phrases here to see what you think.

 

[PhiloPlume]

On 10/21/2024 at 6:26 PM, dms525 said:

 

As for your letter forms, they are nice and legible but not italic.

You are right, of course, Dave, and am getting back to writing italic properly!  Need to get rid of some bad "habits" like you said!

[Stompie]

How did things work out with the micro mesh?

 

You have not put any photos up for us to see how you are progressing, is there a chance that you may post some soon please?

 

And how has your search for paper been going - it can be expensive trying to source the right stuff!

[PhiloPlume]

9 hours ago, Stompie said:

How did things work out with the micro mesh?

 

You have not put any photos up for us to see how you are progressing, is there a chance that you may post some soon please?

 

And how has your search for paper been going - it can be expensive trying to source the right stuff!

Hey Stompie!

 

I am still just basically messing around because I am trying to learn Copperplate too (and also went back to straightening up my handwriting as it is not what it used to be - using Dubay-Getty for the most part -it is cursive-italic without loops ) and am emphasizing that for the most part.  I did order some nibs from Spain (fine and medium - Scrips) that David dms25 recommended but haven't used them enough yet.  They are a little sharper than the Franklin-Christoph Cursive Italic nibs that I have, so I have to slow down.  I put them in a couple F-C #5 pens as he suggested.

 

I also ordered a couple old, used Italic pen sets from Osmiroid but they do not contain converters so I think they are probably worthless unless I am supposed to use an eyedropper to fill in the cavity with ink?

 

One interesting item I found on eBay are  D.Leonardt Dip Nibs (box of eight) that insert into calligraphy pens.  They are fairly narrow and write well with calligraphy ink such as Sumi.

 

However, if I am going to post my italic writing again here I had better have all my ducks in a row and have found and straightened up my errors before posting more samples for the world to see 🙂

 

I should probably start a new topic entitled something like "Help me straighten out my handwriting and italic please!!" hehe.  No, seriously!

 

I am practicing on HP Premium 32# Inkjet paper and Hammermill 28# and I think they are wonderful for fountain pen and calligraphy inks.  No problems ever, and a lot cheaper than the stationary fountain pen friendly paper such as Clairfontaine....

 

Thanks

 

 

[Stompie]

However, if I am going to post my italic writing again here I had better have all my ducks in a row and have found and straightened up my errors before posting more samples for the world to see 🙂

 

I would not worry about your ducks mate - we all post pictures on here with warts and all!

I have just ordered some Irofan paper based on some reviews on here, I say ordered, it is on my Christmas wish list so who knows if I will get it or not.

 

[PhiloPlume]

13 hours ago, Stompie said:

However, if I am going to post my italic writing again here I had better have all my ducks in a row and have found and straightened up my errors before posting more samples for the world to see 🙂

 

I would not worry about your ducks mate - we all post pictures on here with warts and all!

I have just ordered some Irofan paper based on some reviews on here, I say ordered, it is on my Christmas wish list so who knows if I will get it or not.

 

What would you like me to write Stompie, and with what (I was just about to send you a message instead of a post)?  I should have some time in the next couple of days to practice.

I never heard of that paper.

 

-paul

[Stompie]

The first lines of your Constitution would be fantastic as it is possibly the greatest document in history.

 

Tomoe Schmomoe, Give Me Iroful!

 

Is the topic where this paper is reviewed under the Paper and Pen Paraphernalia topics

[PhiloPlume]

4 hours ago, Stompie said:

The first lines of your Constitution would be fantastic as it is possibly the greatest document in history.

 

 

Yes!

 

I have a James Madison fountain pen that I bought from Farhney's (and various Declaration of Independence signers and other founding fathers and similar themed pens. 🙂  But they all have regular nibs.

 

I will see what I can do!  🙂  Don't expect Lloyd Reynolds or any of his students quality! lol