This is Italic, right?

[PhiloPlume]

Hi All!

 

I am eventually going to post another topic called something like "Why is my cursive-italic so gurly looking" hehe (not kidding) but I just stumbled upon Brian Walker Master Penman of the recent past and found this piece.  I have been using Franklin-Christof Cursive-Italic nibs and have gotten pretty good with Italic writing after many, many hours studying and practicing via Lloyd Reynolds, Fred Eager, etc....

 

What nib and pen do you think this was written with?  Maybe a Speedball pen and nib?  I just cannot quite write this beautiful with all the italic nibs that I have tried for the last year or more.  Speedball nibs write too large for my purpose, but maybe this was larger than it looks on the website (https://briangwalkercalligrapher.com/penmanship/).

 

There are lots of examples in Sheila Water's "Foundations of Calligraphy" book on italic that I would love to sit down with someone and ask "How did they do that???!!!" and get nudged in the right direction for study 🙂

 

[Mechanical]

Pretty sure this was done with an italic nib because it has the characteristic thick and thin strokes. 

 

In terms of getting better, I think you're doing the right thing already by practicing and studying a number of fine examples.   What I was told, was to practice with a large width nib... maybe 2mm?  The large nibs really magnify the flaws and then you can see better where to fix things.

 

Naturally, learning from a teacher would be great.  Have you checked if you have a calligraphy society nearby?

 

Hope that helps. :-)

[Stompie]

It could be any number of nibs to be honest. There are "tricks of the trade" that people use to get different strokes out of a straight forward nib. 

Check out Calligraphy Masters instagram or You Tube stuff where they show people doing actual handwriting and you will see many examples of them manufacturing strokes by changing pen angles and manipulating nibs so on.

 

But, Like Mechanical said, your best bet is finding a teacher to help you through - good luck!

[Paul-in-SF]

I think learning would also be easier and more effective if you use a fully-Italic grind, rather than a cursive Italic. A true Italic grind has sharp corners, which facilitates some of the Italic effects but is more demanding on the writer; the cursive Italic grind rounds the shoulders to make the nib easier to use for everyday writing, but which tends to soften the contrasts between the narrow and broad parts of the letters.

[PhiloPlume]

10 hours ago, Mechanical said:

Naturally, learning from a teacher would be great.  Have you checked if you have a calligraphy society nearby?

A fellow member here helped me tremendously and introduced me to Lloyd Reynold's (and Franklin Christoph and their music nib to practice with) which introduced my to Fred Eager, which introduced me to Alfred Fairbanks and so on 🙂

 

Oh - "Written Letters" is the main driving force behind me wanting to get better (based on Lloyd Reynolds but the author recommends a Speedball with a C-2 nib which writes pretty large - much larger than the book was written in so I assume it was shrunk down for print)

 

My italic is pretty good but every time I see writing like the above, it makes me want to get better!

 

No clubs or teachers in my part of Montana as far as I know.  Bunch of art galleries in town in Livingston but that is all.

 

Thanks!!

[PhiloPlume]

6 hours ago, Stompie said:

There are "tricks of the trade

Yes!  Besides putting in the hard work and hours (which I have done), there is something that I do not know.  Like the examples in the book I mentioned (along with learning how to illustrate and use gauche for italic,...).

 

Thanks!

[PhiloPlume]

6 hours ago, Stompie said:

changing pen angles and manipulating nibs so on

This is what I know I am missing!

[PhiloPlume]

26 minutes ago, Paul-in-SF said:

I think learning would also be easier and more effective if you use a fully-Italic grind, rather than a cursive Italic. A true Italic grind has sharp corners, which facilitates some of the Italic effects but is more demanding on the writer; the cursive Italic grind rounds the shoulders to make the nib easier to use for everyday writing, but which tends to soften the contrasts between the narrow and broad parts of the letters.

 I think you are *exactly* correct! I have spent hours searching for true italic nibs that will not write so large but the closest I have found are Franklin-Christof's pens and nibs, speedball's and various sets that write huge {(like for "signs" and "posters" as far as I am concerned - I want to stick to handwriting for the most part_.

 

Thank you!

[Stompie]

10 minutes ago, PhiloPlume said:

 I think you are *exactly* correct! I have spent hours searching for true italic nibs that will not write so large but the closest I have found are Franklin-Christof's pens and nibs, speedball's and various sets that write huge {(like for "signs" and "posters" as far as I am concerned - I want to stick to handwriting for the most part_.

 

Thank you!

Have you tried Pilot Parallel pens? They are very good italic fountain pens and can do all sorts of tricks. The finest one is 1.5 size so still a bit thick.

Manuscript calligraphy pens are very good as well and very cheap.

[dms525]

A couple thoughts: First, the difference between a stub nib, a cursive italic nib and a formal italic nib is fuzzy. Most of the pens with steel JoWo stubs I have bought in recent years have plenty of line variation for my everyday italic handwriting. I do think this may be a reflection of the particular brands. I know certain pen makers do an exceptional job of tuning nibs before shipping the pens. When I order a pen with a custom grind, I ask for "a crisp cursive italic" and generally get a nib that meets my needs.

 

By the way, a Roman pen shop, Stilo e Stile, is offering custom-ground steel JoWo nibs as an added item when you order one of their many other offerings. I have ordered nibs ground cursive italic by three of them, and they are all excellent - very crisp. None are very broad though. (No affiliation except as customer)

 

My second point is one Lloyd Reynolds emphasized and is worth repeating to yourself at frequent intervals. Mindless repetition does not lead to progress. in fact, it can lead to errors being stored in muscle memory. "Critical practice" is what Reynolds demanded. Compare what you have written to your exemplar. Note your deviations from your model and work to correct them.

 

 

Happy writing!

 

David

[PhiloPlume]

53 minutes ago, Stompie said:

Have you tried Pilot Parallel pens? They are very good italic fountain pens and can do all sorts of tricks. The finest one is 1.5 size so still a bit thick.

Manuscript calligraphy pens are very good as well and very cheap.

I see them being used in YouTube videos but the links are outdated or the pens are no longer being sold. The seem like they are for big lettering though.  Don't know what manuscript calligraphy pens are.  Sounds interesting!

[PhiloPlume]

13 minutes ago, dms525 said:

A couple thoughts: First, the difference between a stub nib, a cursive italic nib and a formal italic nib is fuzzy. Most of the pens with steel JoWo stubs I have bought in recent years have plenty of line variation for my everyday italic handwriting. I do think this may be a reflection of the particular brands. I know certain pen makers do an exceptional job of tuning nibs before shipping the pens. When I order a pen with a custom grind, I ask for "a crisp cursive italic" and generally get a nib that meets my needs.

 

By the way, a Roman pen shop, Stilo e Stile, is offering custom-ground steel JoWo nibs as an added item when you order one of their many other offerings. I have ordered nibs ground cursive italic by three of them, and they are all excellent - very crisp. None are very broad though. (No affiliation except as customer)

 

My second point is one Lloyd Reynolds emphasized and is worth repeating to yourself at frequent intervals. Mindless repetition does not lead to progress. in fact, it can lead to errors being stored in muscle memory. "Critical practice" is what Reynolds demanded. Compare what you have written to your exemplar. Note your deviations from your model and work to correct them.

 

 

Happy writing!

 

David

Hi David!!!  I am not kidding!  I have been looking for any print out with your name on it and trying to find you here to see if you are still an active member!  I knew your first name was David though!!!  You are my mentor here!

 

I have to head out for a bit but when I get back home later today I will again study your post.

 

-paul

[Penguincollector]

1 hour ago, PhiloPlume said:

Don't know what manuscript calligraphy pens are.  Sounds interesting!

 

  Manuscript is a brand of calligraphy sets, similar to Osmiroid.
 

   I think you should look for a basic italic set that has nibs from EF to BB or from .7 (or smaller if you can find it) to 1.1 mm. That way you have some larger nibs to practice with and some smaller ones. I have a few different sets and really like the Staedtler set in the tin and the Osmiroid Master Calligraphy set. The Staedtler can be found new on Amazon for $20 and the Osmiroid you have to look on Ebay or other secondhand sale sites as they are no longer made. I have had about 4 pens (MB, Pilot, Parker, Sheaffer- all gold) ground italic by Speer and Ang and these plus a couple of factory italics by Pilot (take a look at the Prera Iro-Ai with the cursive medium nib) TWSBI, and Conklin (new and vintage) are my favorites for italic writing. 
 

  Oh, I also really like vintage dip dibs for italic writing. I use 2 for this: both by E.S. Perry/Osmiroid- Italic 95 Broad Straight and MR3. I think they were also made smaller, like medium straight and M2R but I don’t own those.  My photo galleries are full of pictures of writing samples made with these pens if you want examples.
 

 

 

 

[PhiloPlume]

2 hours ago, dms525 said:

A couple thoughts: First, the difference between a stub nib, a cursive italic nib and a formal italic nib is fuzzy. Most of the pens with steel JoWo stubs I have bought in recent years have plenty of line variation for my everyday italic handwriting. I do think this may be a reflection of the particular brands. I know certain pen makers do an exceptional job of tuning nibs before shipping the pens. When I order a pen with a custom grind, I ask for "a crisp cursive italic" and generally get a nib that meets my needs.

 

By the way, a Roman pen shop, Stilo e Stile, is offering custom-ground steel JoWo nibs as an added item when you order one of their many other offerings. I have ordered nibs ground cursive italic by three of them, and they are all excellent - very crisp. None are very broad though. (No affiliation except as customer)

 

Hi David,

 

Lloyd's example is very nicely written and too the point.  Who would I go through to get a "crisp, cursive italic" pen and/or nib?  Something more "crisp" in extra-fine, fine, and possibly medium (at most).  Something more crisply and more sharply ground than the F-C cursive italic nibs?

 

I am checking out Stilo e Stile now.  Don't want broad so that is good!

[PhiloPlume]

1 hour ago, Penguincollector said:

My photo galleries are full of pictures of writing samples made with these pens if you want examples.

Yes please!  I think I need to go with a custom ground.  I now have a couple dozen Franklin-Christop pens (and more just nibs) in Fine and Medium and one broad and one music and I really like their CI and also SIG for normal handwriting with a small edge, but they are not quite sharp enough (I think that is it as I have think I have progressed far enough in italic) to do what I want.  I use them almost every day.  Both the #6 and #5 pens and nibs.  I love them though.  Thanks to David for finding out about them.

 

I know, it is probably "It's not you, it's me!" type of thing 🙂

[PhiloPlume]

Some examples that I absolutely love and wish I could do!  #1 is quite large and in gauche.  I have nibs this size.  But I am looking to do smaller, "handwriting" sized writing.  #1 is for my next life as it must have taken a decade(s) to get that good with all the colors, illustration, etc...  And with paint?

 

See how sharp the edges are on #2 and 3, and 5 for that matter.  And thin. #4 looks like I may be able to do with what I have but with a lot of concentration and more practice and talent lol!

 

These are all from Sheila Water's "Foundations of Calligraphy" book - italic section.

 

-paul

[dms525]

2 hours ago, PhiloPlume said:

 

Hi David,

 

Lloyd's example is very nicely written and too the point.  Who would I go through to get a "crisp, cursive italic" pen and/or nib?  Something more "crisp" in extra-fine, fine, and possibly medium (at most).  Something more crisply and more sharply ground than the F-C cursive italic nibs?

 

I am checking out Stilo e Stile now.  Don't want broad so that is good!

 

Of the custom-ground nibs from Stilo e Stile, Joshua Lax's and Matt Chen's are particularly nice. Look for either "CI" or "CSI" nibs.  I'll upload a sample later, if you wish.

 

My long-time go to nib grinder for custom work has been Michael Masuyama. I was initially referred to him by the U.S. rep for Conway-Stewart. The C-S nibs Michael ground for me 15 years ago are still among my favorite writers for italic. Those Bock nibs made for C-S were quite springy. So lovely to write with. I would say "sensuous." I can't speak to the current iteration of C-S.

 

If I had to choose one pen to have ground to use for italic handwriting it would be a Pelikan - an M600 or M800, depending on your personal preference for pen size. Those nibs are nails but grind beautifully to my preferred crisp cursive italic. If you can find an M800 3B or 2B nib, they end up with the best thick/thin line differentiation. I would go for a nib that writes a 0.75-0.9mm line, but you may prefer a different width.

 

Sailor 21Kt Zoom and Music nibs are also good bases for italic grinds. I like them but still prefer the Pelikan nibs.

 

If you have a generous budget, classic OMAS nibs were awfully nice. Contemporary Scribo nibs are pretty good. Their Stub nib is ridiculously expensive, but their Broad nib grinds nicely to cursive italic. They are a bit soft, but not as springy as I prefer in soft nibs. Visconti nibs can be excellent. I have experienced their QC problems more often than not. Others have been more fortunate. Montegrappas have excellent nibs too.

 

Obviously, all of the above reflects my personal preferences and experience. That of others will vary, naturally.

 

So many pens. So little time ... and other resources.

 

I do admire true "calligraphy," but my own aspiration is to improve my italic handwriting. Here is a sample of personal, informal italic handwriting I received in a letter this past week. The writer is a professional calligrapher who studied with Maury Nimoy in the 1970's.

 

 

 

The x-height of these letters in 2 mm!

 

Happy writing!

 

David

[dms525]

Here are some writing samples with nibs ground to cursive italic:

 

 

Note that I find my photos make my handwritten text less crisp than it actually is.

 

David

[PhiloPlume]

6 hours ago, Penguincollector said:

The Staedtler can be found new on Amazon for $20

I have a Woodsworth and Black and also a Ellington set.  Very nice fountain pens.  But the nibs write way too huge for me.  Even the nibs that say 1mm or less seem actually much bigger than that.  I want to stay away from starter sets.  Thanks!!

[PhiloPlume]

2 hours ago, dms525 said:

 

Note that I find my photos make my handwritten text less crisp than it actually is.

 

nice!  I wish I didn't spend so much money on F-C pens and nibs only to finally admit that they do not exactly write like I want to write Italic.  As in the sample I have posted here previously, especially the original one up top.  The fine cursive-italic still writes too large for me and since they are a finer nib, not very smooth.  Not bad though!  It is hard to write small like in Lloyd Reynold's student who wrote "Written Letters" (?). I think her writing is perfect, although a little "thick".  I think the samples were written larger and reduced for print.

 

If I found an italic pen and nib that would do 2mm letters like you posted, that would be great (because my writing would probably end up a little larger)!  I will maybe buy one or two more fountain pens for italic writing and that is it since I spent so much on F-C stuff and ended up not quite what I want to write like.   #2 and #3 in my matrix would be my dream besides what the original screenshot.  On more of a slant like #2.  #1 and 4 would be what I would like to do for a "living" 🙂

 

Thanks!

 

-paul