Do vintage pens leak?

[senzen]

That kind of ink stain used to happen to me... With perfectly working pens 🙄.

[Tommaso Santojanni]

Your western saga sounds like a remarkable and sweeping tale, especially with the focus on the very resilient and trailblazing as Mary Ann Alvord! I look forward to seeing how the history and character interplay in your books.

 

Thank you also for the information regarding pen holders and inkwells. Your advice on finding the right fit, especially when buying used, is particularly helpful. I will certainly keep that in mind.

 

On 10/2/2024 at 5:01 PM, Bo Bo Olson said:

I'm writing a 5 book western saga 

 

--- CUT ---

 

On 10/2/2024 at 5:01 PM, Bo Bo Olson said:

.............................

PM sent.

.....................

I neglected pen holders for inkwells, so I have two pen holders in use; the Pelikan holds standard and large. Another holds narrow pens, in I had one in it. It is too narrow for standard pens.

So it might be you will have to buy a pen for a holder.

If buying used , which is the best way to go, do ask what pen fits.

 

 

I have a lot of inkwells, but am missing the dipless pen holders ...often from Esterbrook (with luck also the desk pen). In there was once an Esterbrook factory in England, perhaps you can pick up a deal with one of them.

 

[Bo Bo Olson]

The biography of Mary Ann Alford is a separate book. She appears by word of mouth in the second book of the saga, and a malicious tongued woman gives my murderous heroine the wrong impression.

Mary Ann shows up in the saga, in a later Denver meeting with my murderous heroine and her blond bombshell blackjack and KO drop artist sidekick, in the last book. The malicious insulation of lacking morals is disproved. 

[Mercian]

On 9/28/2024 at 9:44 AM, Tommaso Santojanni said:

recently acquired a Pelikan 40NN in the distinctive green stripe design, featuring a super-flex EF nib, described by a specialist as a "wet noodle." It has quickly become a favourite of mine, offering unparalleled line variation permitting an unprecedented flourish when signing legal documents. I am thoroughly captivated by it.

 

Unfortunately, the pen consistently leaks ink into the cap, staining my hands far too frequently to be employed practically in daily professional use.

I have a 400 from 1954.
My pen doesn’t leak.

Your pen will have same ebonite feed that mine does, but, as it is a 400NN, it may also have been made with a polystyrene(?) feed collar. Those are known to become brittle, and to crack. Which can cause leakage.

 

I believe that there are less-brittle replacement parts available nowadays, but I urge you to NOT attempt the repair yourself!

 

When I bought my 400, it leaked at the back end, because its piston-seal/gasket was worn out/damaged.

I got the piston seal of my 400 replaced by Pens Plus of Oxford.

https://pensplus.co.uk/pages/repairs-and-service

 

 

On 10/2/2024 at 11:59 AM, Tommaso Santojanni said:

Regarding the leaking 400NN, a highly skilled nib expert (not a restorer though) whom I will meet at the October London Pan Show, who had previously tuned the nib, made the following suggestion: "I believe there is a reasonable chance of fixing the issue, but I will need to disassemble the nib unit to inspect for any cracks. Should there be any, the repair will be more intricate; however, if not, it may simply require some gentle heating and re-greasing of the threads—a much simpler solution!" - if he fails to correct the leak, the pen will have to move to a new owner.

If you can afford to commute to London from Hampshire, and to dress in handmade shirts, you can certainly afford to get your pen properly repaired by these guys - and you are not likely to ever find another pen with a nib as glorious as that on your 400NN, especially one that holds as much ink as the 400NN does (very useful when its nib is that wet).

 

I urge you to contact Pens Plus, to explain the problem to them, and to ask them to assess your pen.
They are experienced and they are reliable. I would also advise you to ask them about the piston seal on your pen - mine was worn out, but yours may be one of the more-modern ones, which last for longer.

After I got my 400 back from them, it no longer leaks at its back end, but it still writes with its glorious wet line (so wet that 4001 Blue-Black turns black!) and its nib - while not as flexible as the one on your 400NN - is an absolute joy 😊

I expect my repaired 400 to last for at least another 70 years - far longer than I will! 😁

I wish you good luck 

Slàinte,
M.

[ele]

I think there is something wrong with your pen--probably a piston seal issue as others have said. I have found the 400/n/nn to be among the most reliable in terms of not leaking. Of course, any pen without a shutoff valve will leak if the conditions are right (what varies is how easy it is to achieve those over-flow conditions--different feed designs, chamber sizes, insulation from body heat, etc)

[Bo Bo Olson]

14 hours ago, Mercian said:

described by a specialist as a "wet noodle."

I doubt it........I think what you have is a maxi-semi-flex.

I have one on my green stripped 400nn....an OF.

Degussa took Osmia's nib factory for debt in 1932, and continued making semi-flex and maxi-semi-flex nibs for Osmia. The continued making nibs for other companies.

But what counts here is Degussa is and was the gold and silver manufacturer for Germany. They made gold ribbon wheels for fountain pens....and depending on a bookkeepers decision to get rid of the cheaper gold ribbon wheels, or lazy warehouse workers, gave out a maxi-semi-flex wheel as first on hand.

I have some 16 pens with maxi-semi-flex nibs...(only in Osmia do I have maxi-semi-flex in steel also) None of the other companies, MB, Pelikan, and Geha was there a mention of having an extra springy semi-flex....and I have maxi-semi-flex nibs from them. Advertising was always expensive. So if noticed, it wasn't advertised.

 

I 'discovered' maxi-semi-flex. I had a Rupp nib that is still the most flexible of my maxi-semi-flex nibs.I spun around in circles for some three days, muttering that is certainly a maxi----semi-flex nib. Then I tested my then 20 (now 35)semi-flex nibs, and found five were maxi-semi-flex. (16 now)

 

On my 100n made up to 1954 I have a first stage superflex; Easy Full Flex nib.

But then again I have a flex rate system that works if you have a standard springy regular flex, like a 120, 200 (still) or '82-97 400/600 or 800. You have to one of those for my system to work. Certain Esterbrooks, Shaffer's Crest, and Wearever pens have that springy regular flex.

There is a 3 X tine spread vs a light down stroke group....the springy 120, 200 or '82-97 400/600 or 800. (from my reading a Pilot 'soft' is a bit harder, but that is a factory ground half moons at the shoulders to make it softer.

When well mashed to 3X, you can not write with the nib so maxed.

 

Then a semi-flex (to 1970) takes half that pressure to reach 3X a light down stroke. You can write with it maxed...if one has heavy hands like I use to have.

A maxi-semi-flex (to 1970) takes half of that or 1/4th the amount of pressure needed to max a regular flex.

 

Then comes superflex. It has an easier and wider flex than the above.What I find important is the ease of tine spread, not the max. Those who can write (not me) want quick snapback, not how fat one can make a line.

 

I have read Richard Binder's fine article in his blog, on metal fatigue, so with superflex, I always strive to stay one X under max........I have a Easy Full Flex 100n, that will go 5X, but I strive not to go above 4 X...I don't want metal fatigue to spring my nib.

 

There are some superflex that only have a tine spread of 4X, but are rare.

Most superflex have a tine spread of 5-6 X....A 7X is rare outside of folks helping you spring the nib, on youtube and selling a nib that has been pre-sprung for your convenience on Ebay.

 

Easy Full Flex, takes half the pressure of a maxi-semi-flex to reach it's max of mostly 5-6 X. Or 1/8th the pressure needed to max a regular flex.

 

Wet Noodle...half of that or 1/16th the pressure needed to max a regular flex. I have two 7 X tine spread Wet Noodles and four or so with 6 X tine spread.

 

The term Weak Kneed Wet Noodle was invented by the English nib grinder, John Sorowka. Half a of a superflex. or 1/32 or 1/64th of the pressure needed to mash a regular flex out to 3X. I've not decided which of the 1/32 or 1/64th pressure mine has. A pre '24 MB Safety Pen with a Simplo #6 nib.

 

[Tommaso Santojanni]

On 10/4/2024 at 10:29 PM, Mercian said:

I have a 400 from 1954.
My pen doesn’t leak.

Your pen will have same ebonite feed that mine does, but, as it is a 400NN, it may also have been made with a polystyrene(?) feed collar. Those are known to become brittle, and to crack. Which can cause leakage.

 

I believe that there are less-brittle replacement parts available nowadays, but I urge you to NOT attempt the repair yourself!

 

When I bought my 400, it leaked at the back end, because its piston-seal/gasket was worn out/damaged.

I got the piston seal of my 400 replaced by Pens Plus of Oxford.

https://pensplus.co.uk/pages/repairs-and-service

 

 

If you can afford to commute to London from Hampshire, and to dress in handmade shirts, you can certainly afford to get your pen properly repaired by these guys - and you are not likely to ever find another pen with a nib as glorious as that on your 400NN, especially one that holds as much ink as the 400NN does (very useful when its nib is that wet).

 

I urge you to contact Pens Plus, to explain the problem to them, and to ask them to assess your pen.
They are experienced and they are reliable. I would also advise you to ask them about the piston seal on your pen - mine was worn out, but yours may be one of the more-modern ones, which last for longer.

After I got my 400 back from them, it no longer leaks at its back end, but it still writes with its glorious wet line (so wet that 4001 Blue-Black turns black!) and its nib - while not as flexible as the one on your 400NN - is an absolute joy 😊

I expect my repaired 400 to last for at least another 70 years - far longer than I will! 😁

I wish you good luck 

Slàinte,
M.

 

Good evening, Slàinte, and thank you for recommending Pens Plus. I have previously purchased pens and had other repaired there, and I cannot speak highly enough of Paul’s exceptional craftsmanship. I also greatly enjoy our conversations—he is a most knowledgeable gentleman, if I may say so. He will certainly be the one to repair my nib, should Thomas feel uncomfortable with the task. The only reason I approached Thomas first is that I had the pleasure of dining with him after he had worked on several of my pens, and he kindly offered to take a look at my 400NN. That said, I am in full agreement—Paul at Pens Plus in Oxford is a truly outstanding restorer.

 

 

 

On 10/5/2024 at 12:39 PM, Bo Bo Olson said:

I doubt it........I think what you have is a maxi-semi-flex.

I have one on my green stripped 400nn....an OF.

Degussa took Osmia's nib factory for debt in 1932, and continued making semi-flex and maxi-semi-flex nibs for Osmia. The continued making nibs for other companies.

But what counts here is Degussa is and was the gold and silver manufacturer for Germany. They made gold ribbon wheels for fountain pens....and depending on a bookkeepers decision to get rid of the cheaper gold ribbon wheels, or lazy warehouse workers, gave out a maxi-semi-flex wheel as first on hand.

I have some 16 pens with maxi-semi-flex nibs...(only in Osmia do I have maxi-semi-flex in steel also) None of the other companies, MB, Pelikan, and Geha was there a mention of having an extra springy semi-flex....and I have maxi-semi-flex nibs from them. Advertising was always expensive. So if noticed, it wasn't advertised.

 

I 'discovered' maxi-semi-flex. I had a Rupp nib that is still the most flexible of my maxi-semi-flex nibs.I spun around in circles for some three days, muttering that is certainly a maxi----semi-flex nib. Then I tested my then 20 (now 35)semi-flex nibs, and found five were maxi-semi-flex. (16 now)

 

On my 100n made up to 1954 I have a first stage superflex; Easy Full Flex nib.

But then again I have a flex rate system that works if you have a standard springy regular flex, like a 120, 200 (still) or '82-97 400/600 or 800. You have to one of those for my system to work. Certain Esterbrooks, Shaffer's Crest, and Wearever pens have that springy regular flex.

There is a 3 X tine spread vs a light down stroke group....the springy 120, 200 or '82-97 400/600 or 800. (from my reading a Pilot 'soft' is a bit harder, but that is a factory ground half moons at the shoulders to make it softer.

When well mashed to 3X, you can not write with the nib so maxed.

 

Then a semi-flex (to 1970) takes half that pressure to reach 3X a light down stroke. You can write with it maxed...if one has heavy hands like I use to have.

A maxi-semi-flex (to 1970) takes half of that or 1/4th the amount of pressure needed to max a regular flex.

 

Then comes superflex. It has an easier and wider flex than the above.What I find important is the ease of tine spread, not the max. Those who can write (not me) want quick snapback, not how fat one can make a line.

 

I have read Richard Binder's fine article in his blog, on metal fatigue, so with superflex, I always strive to stay one X under max........I have a Easy Full Flex 100n, that will go 5X, but I strive not to go above 4 X...I don't want metal fatigue to spring my nib.

 

There are some superflex that only have a tine spread of 4X, but are rare.

Most superflex have a tine spread of 5-6 X....A 7X is rare outside of folks helping you spring the nib, on youtube and selling a nib that has been pre-sprung for your convenience on Ebay.

 

Easy Full Flex, takes half the pressure of a maxi-semi-flex to reach it's max of mostly 5-6 X. Or 1/8th the pressure needed to max a regular flex.

 

Wet Noodle...half of that or 1/16th the pressure needed to max a regular flex. I have two 7 X tine spread Wet Noodles and four or so with 6 X tine spread.

 

The term Weak Kneed Wet Noodle was invented by the English nib grinder, John Sorowka. Half a of a superflex. or 1/32 or 1/64th of the pressure needed to mash a regular flex out to 3X. I've not decided which of the 1/32 or 1/64th pressure mine has. A pre '24 MB Safety Pen with a Simplo #6 nib.

 

 

Good evening, and thank you for all the fascinating information!

I must say, I absolutely love my nib just as it is and, while I haven’t measured precisely how many times wider the line spreads, I do find it to be incredibly flexible.

That said, I am convinced there is always room for me to be proven wrong, especially as I am relatively new to the world of fountain pens and nib flex—so I am certainly open to learning and discovering something even better!
 

[Tommaso Santojanni]

Update: upon picking up my Pelikan 400NN to write—after it had remained completely undisturbed on my desk for three full days—I was met with a rather frustrating drop of ink (image below).

 

 

Furthermore, this is what the feed looked like:

 

[carola]

There is definitely something wrong with you 400NN. This isn´t how this pen should behave. Please get some help from professionals who should be able to teach your pen some manners. You won´t regret it.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Sounds like your gasket has given up the ghost, or you collar is shot, as mentioned before. In you have Plastic Gasket 2.0 (1955-now), more than likely your collar.

Plastic Gasket 1.0 @ 1939-1954.

[Mercian]

2 hours ago, Tommaso Santojanni said:

Furthermore, this is what the feed looked like:
 

 

Yikes!

Given how much ink is leaking from around the feed of your pen (where it emerges from the grip-section) I feel fairly certain that its plastic feed collar has indeed cracked or shattered 😔

If your pen's piston seal were damaged I would expect it to leak from the back of the pen, rather than from the front.
My own 400 leaked slightly from the back of the pen (i.e. where the piston spindle emerges as one turns the piston knob) when I was cleaning ink out of it, but it didn't leak around the feed in the way that yours does.

 

Oh, and don't attempt to remove the nib unit yourself!
If the feed collar has shattered, parts of it can get stuck inside the pen if one tries to remove the feed unit oneself!
If I were you I would definitely leave the job to a restorer.
I think that you should only dump the ink out of the pen, flush it with plain water, and then send it to the repairer of your choice.
It would be a great shame to deprive yourself of what is a superb pen with a fantastic nib.

 

I wish you the best of luck with it!

[inkstainedruth]

@Tommaso Santojanni What was the ink you were using in the pen?  That might also be a factor.

My first Pelikan was a 1990s era M400 Brown Tortoise, F nib (bought for a special occasion from off of eBay).  I had sort of planned to use the pen for drawing, only the first ink I tried in it was Iroshizuku Yama-guri -- and that was WAY too wet an ink for that pen -- it was a firehose.  I then learned that Pelikan pens are designed to write wet -- to compensate for the rather dry Pelikan inks.  When I tried the pen with the similar color Edelstein Smoky Quartz, it was MUCH better behaved.  And it also did well with Noodler's Walnut (which I had initially tried in a cheapie Platinum Plaisir, and which turned out to be a dry writer).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Tommaso Santojanni]

8 hours ago, inkstainedruth said:

@Tommaso Santojanni What was the ink you were using in the pen?  That might also be a factor.

My first Pelikan was a 1990s era M400 Brown Tortoise, F nib (bought for a special occasion from off of eBay).  I had sort of planned to use the pen for drawing, only the first ink I tried in it was Iroshizuku Yama-guri -- and that was WAY too wet an ink for that pen -- it was a firehose.  I then learned that Pelikan pens are designed to write wet -- to compensate for the rather dry Pelikan inks.  When I tried the pen with the similar color Edelstein Smoky Quartz, it was MUCH better behaved.  And it also did well with Noodler's Walnut (which I had initially tried in a cheapie Platinum Plaisir, and which turned out to be a dry writer).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

I use Lamy T53 black crystal ink.


I wish to thank all who have offered their expert insights, which I appreciate. As mentioned, I shall seek out a restorer at the October Pen Show in London, and failing that, I will entrust the pen to Paul at Pens Plus in Oxford.

[Beechwood]

2 hours ago, Tommaso Santojanni said:

I use Lamy T53 black crystal ink.


I wish to thank all who have offered their expert insights, which I appreciate. As mentioned, I shall seek out a restorer at the October Pen Show in London, and failing that, I will entrust the pen to Paul at Pens Plus in Oxford.

 

I think that is very wise Tommaso, I would go a little further than has already been suggested and look at the piston and its seal. there are some very good restorers at the London Pen show and only one to avoid. 

 

I agree with you, a leaking pen is no use to man nor beast and it is time to let it go if it cannot be fixed, then look at a modern Pelikan perhaps, bought at whatever budget, some regard the M800 as the best made pen you can buy.

 

I would be surprised if the leaking problem can be fixed by a change of ink, just not logical.

 

Keep us informed, we are all invested!

[Tommaso Santojanni]

@Format, thank you kindly.

May I request that you privately message me the name of the individual to avoid?
 

At present, I am temporarily substituting my 400NN with a Super Lucens, passed down from my grandfather. Though equally flexible as the Pelikan, in my personal estimation, it lacks the same iconic stature. In my mind, it is the green-striped, cigar-shaped 400NN that epitomises the classic fountain pen, irrespective of its collectibility, value, or sentimental attachment. There are several earlier Pelikans in my grandfather’s collection, including another with green stripes, yet none possess that distinctive cigar shape which, to my admittedly uninformed eye, feels truly iconic.

Regarding your kind suggestion to entertain modern fountain pens, very regrettably, I have never managed to cultivate a true appreciation for advanced craftsmanship or engineering marvels, despite their undeniable qualities, so apparent to so many: I have concluded that I must be somewhat “flawed”!

I do my utmost to recognise the brilliance of technological advancements, yet I find no joy in them; for example, fuel-injected engines and modern electronic comforts, while impressive, suffocate character out of motorcars, and that's why mine are all from my era—the 1960s. Gore-Tex feels artificial and lifeless, and my wife, exasperated, often remarks on my eccentric resistance to adapt to your English weather; gas heating is convenient, but I cannot forsake the sound and warmth of a crackling fireplace, and so on and so forth...

Sadly, with fountain pens I fall short in a similar manner: I possess about half a dozen that I am assured are quite special, including The Diplomat Calligraphy with the Triple Infinity Nib, a series I Paragon Arco Brown, a one-off classique solitaire crafted for a specific occasion, with a distinctive gold artwork, and other limited or special editions. Yet, none of them captivates me. I find myself unable to use them, and they now languish in a drawer of my desk.

 

My kind business partner even persuaded me to consult Thomas Ang, a renowned nib tuner, to refine a couple that I found scratchy; they now glide smoother than butter, but I’ve realised it’s not the precision, efficiency, or perfection of these modern instruments that I cherish. I suspect my impaired taste yearns for something more elusive, intangible, and fleeting, though, as English is not my first language, I lack the fluency to articulate it with the appropriate words.

On my grandfather's pen case, he inscribed: "Man may create history, but without the pen, it would be lost to time." – perhaps it is that sense of preserving history that I seek in a pen. Not that my writings deserve posterity, but perhaps I harbour a quiet, unspoken hope they might, if only for my daughter.

[Beechwood]

PM sent.

 

I understand your position completely, especially on the car situation. I have recently bought an Audi, brilliant engineering but excessively complicated with many messages given to me every time I start and stop the car, including one that I just don't understand that comes up on the screen 'Exit permissions to be verified'.

 

I am sure that you will enjoy the London Pen Show, talk to many and enjoy the day. I tend to be overloaded and need to escape from the hotel mid morning for a coffee, coming back refreshed.

 

 

 

 

[Tommaso Santojanni]

25 minutes ago, Format said:

.... 'Exit permissions to be verified' 😂 does your Audi hold you hostage?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mercian]

3 hours ago, Tommaso Santojanni said:

Gore-Tex feels artificial and lifeless, and my wife, exasperated, often remarks on my eccentric resistance to adapt to your English weather

 

Instead of Gore-Tex (or equivalents), perhaps you could consider traditional British waxed-cotton outerwear made by Barbour (or, if you are too traditionally-minded for them) by Belstaff...?

 

End of thread hijack.

[torstar]

On 10/6/2024 at 3:53 PM, carola said:

There is definitely something wrong with you 400NN. This isn´t how this pen should behave. Please get some help from professionals who should be able to teach your pen some manners. You won´t regret it.

 

The blob on the page is traumatic to see..   

 

 

[Tommaso Santojanni]

4 hours ago, Mercian said:

 

Instead of Gore-Tex (or equivalents), perhaps you could consider traditional British waxed-cotton outerwear made by Barbour (or, if you are too traditionally-minded for them) by Belstaff...?

 

End of thread hijack.

 

Ah, but that is precisely what I use! However, my wife finds my beloved waxed-cotton wanting when compared to the ever-ambitious Gore-Tex. In her eyes, that wax stands to Gore-Tex like carburettors stand to ABS.