Victorian Waterman pen owned by playwright George Grossmith (A pen mystery...)

[United_Common_1858]

Exec Summary for those just joining

• I bought a pen from Peter Twydle, a 9ct gold Waterman with a 14ct medium nib with an autograph from George Grossmith (actor / playwright).  Which I am over the moon with.  This thread is not accuse Peter.  I think he did the best job possible and charged fairly.  I love the pen.  This is now just historical curiosity. 
• I shared the pen here and on a sub-reddit which led to questioning of the date provenance
  • Grossmith died 1912
  • Waterman screw tops were not yet invented
  • Waterman numbering system (54) was introduced in 1917
  • The pen has two different gold hallmarks dating the barrel to 1923 and the cap to 1924 (London)
  • Grossmith had a son (Grossmith Jnr) who was also an actor / playwright and died in 1935
  • Higher resolution photos in the thread below
  • The mystery continues...

 

My original post in quotes below.

 

  Quote

 

Hey all,
I am new here and found this forum via the Fountain Pen sub-reddit where I post under the same name.  I had a little story I thought the network might enjoy and then hopefully someone might help me learn about the pen in the photos. 

In May of this year a friend gifted me a 1950s Burnham fountain pen.  I had been using modern FP's for a little while and it was a nice gift.  Unfortunately the ink sac had crumbled and so I turned to the FP sub-reddit for a little help.  Despite some clues they could not identify the model so I sent the pen to the UK pen repairer Peter Twydle with this letter (attached).  
Whilst on his site I happened to notice he had a 9ct gold Watermans that was autographed / inscribed by George Grossmith, the Victorian playwright and actor who collaborated with Gilbert and Sullivan. 
This seemed like providence since I have my first published play on stage in London in a few weeks at the Etcetera Theatre in Camden.  So I bought it; I had to, being a sucker for chance events. 
However, I don't know anything about Watermans pens at all and have posted some photos.  I was hoping others might be able to tell me more about it.  

 

Expand  

 

 

 

Edited September 8, 2024 by United_Common_1858
updating details

[United_Common_1858]

[davisgt]

First, that's a great pen with an interesting story. 

Second, if you look at the end of the pen, you should see some numbers.  For example, 0552 1/2 V. Each of those numbers give you a clue to the pen. 

Third, the Canada nibs can run the gamut from rigid to flexible.  From the pictures,  it looks to me like the nib might be a cursive italic, but the picture is a bit blurry. 

Also, sacs are easy for a pen repairer to fix. They need to be replaced every few years. 

 

 

[Beechwood]

To help others along

 

George Grossmith lived 1847-1912, his son was 

 

George Grossmith Junior 1874-1935, an actor, producer, songwriter and other talents.

 

 

My first thought is that the pen was owned by the son as opposed to the father because Waterman only started production of a lever filled pen in 1913 but then Peter is unlikely to make an unsubstantiated claim.

 

 

 

 

[davisgt]

The more I look at the nib, it might actually be an Oblique. You'd need to look at the nib with a loupe to verify.  

[United_Common_1858]

  On 9/7/2024 at 4:09 PM, Format said:

My first thought is that the pen was owned by the son as opposed to the father because Waterman only started production of a lever filled pen in 1913 but then Peter is unlikely to make an unsubstantiated claim.

Expand  

This was the original description.  I  figured that Peter would be well-known on the forum and that his description would likely be accurate. 
 

  Quote

This is a 9ct gold overlay Waterman lever-fill fountain pen with a Waterman Canadian 14ct gold medium nib. What makes this pen unique is that it has an autographed barrel engraving of its previous owner George Grossmith

Expand  

 

[United_Common_1858]

  On 9/7/2024 at 4:07 PM, davisgt said:

First, that's a great pen with an interesting story. 

Second, if you look at the end of the pen, you should see some numbers.  For example, 0552 1/2 V. Each of those numbers give you a clue to the pen. 

Expand  

 

The markings I can see on the pen are
 

Next to the lever 

• FDW
• 6 [In a diamond]
• 375
• A castle arch or a small gothic h
• A mask / wolf, cat or dog's head

On the lever

• IDEAL

 

On the pen cap

• An arrow point to the top of the cap

On the cap side

• FDW
• 6
• 375
• A gothic i
• Unintelligible other engraving

On the cap top

• Keyhole or an arrow with minute writing inside

 

On the tail end

• 54

 

High resolution photos taken with a Samsung Ultra smartphone belong. 

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2024 by United_Common_1858

[United_Common_1858]

 

 

 

 

[davisgt]

https://vintagepens.com/FAQhistory/waterman_numbering.shtml

 

David Nishimura has an extensive summary of the Waterman numbering system on Vintage Pens. I included the link above.  

 

The 5 tells you that the pen is a lever-filler and the 4 tells you the nib size. There should be a corresponding 4 on the nib, although it might be hiding under the sleeve. 

[Bo Bo Olson]

Fine pen, I have one a few later than yours from a live auction. A Gothic.(1918-30's)

I wanted the ink well also. The silver dip pen polished up nicely also.

The ink cleaned off the nib with no trouble. It too needed a new sac.

[davisgt]

The FDW stands for Frank D Waterman.  He's the nephew of the founder. 

 

That's actually a 9 rather than a 6. It stands for 9 carat. The 375 is the percentage of gold out of 24 carat. 9/24. 

[Bo Bo Olson]

Thank you, Davisgt for the link...would have simplified my search.

 

I was totally ignorant, outside knowing it was an old Waterman, like my two 52's...it was later I got help for Wateman fans. I wanted that inkwell. So I was getting a two for one...

[United_Common_1858]

I have got a little further...the gothic H looks like the hallmark for 1923 but...the cap has a different hallmark; it looks like an ' i ' which doesn't appear in the register.  

 

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2024 by United_Common_1858

[United_Common_1858]

• Most likely date for the pen barrel is 1923 based on the symbols.
• The cap has hallmark dates for 1924.
•  

Unless the pen was manufactured 20 years prior which is not possible with the pen clip, screw cap and Waterman numbering.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 8, 2024 by United_Common_1858

[Mr.Rene]

  On 9/7/2024 at 9:32 PM, United_Common_1858 said:

 

 

 

 

Expand  

Greats photos!!Regards