Posting design sketches for a pen here- Safe?

[T.D. Rabbit]

I've been thinking about a certain type of fountain pen I want to put together. The idea, I would say at least part of it, isn't very original, but my execution of it, at least what I want to do, I cannot find anywhere on the internet. So, would it be safe for me to post some sketches here? i.e. since the forum is open to the internet even for unregistered users, my design does run risk of being picked up by someone else- And I am terribly paranoid about stolen ideas. 

However, this might be the most knowledgeable community about pens in general I have ever found, and the insight here would be, well, invaluable.

 

I am not in a position to make anything other than sketches or basic non-usable models right now, or, indeed, for even a couple of years- Maybe after college, or late into it. However, I would like to get any designs ready so I can at least make models, probably out of air-dry clay. Also pitch them to appropriately skilled friends, because I have almost no artistic ability whatsoever.

 

So... verdict? (Does anyone say that?)

[RedPie]

4 hours ago, T.D. Rabbit said:

i.e. since the forum is open to the internet even for unregistered users, my design does run risk of being picked up by someone else-

You answered your question right here. 

[A Smug Dill]

4 hours ago, T.D. Rabbit said:

And I am terribly paranoid about stolen ideas. 

 

Sorry, but “ideas” are worth nothing basically without execution, and unless you're going to be able to successfully patent the design in every jurisdiction that matters, even after you've brought the product to market others can still pick from it what they can reuse. You win by executing better than anyone else can, with your know-how, access to materials and resources, and commercial partnerships.

[T.D. Rabbit]

8 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

Sorry, but “ideas” are worth nothing basically without execution, and unless you're going to be able to successfully patent the design in every jurisdiction that matters, even after you've brought the product to market others can still pick from it what they can reuse. You win by executing better than anyone else can, with your know-how, access to materials and resources, and commercial partnerships.

I have some level of knowledge, at least when it comes to the mechanics of the pen. It's all quite simple, really (What I have in mind, ie), but there are a few small details that I believe veteran fountain pen users and makers would be well suited to comment on.

I have none of the other things, however...

 

You're right, of course

This (The input bit) might be best to put off, I suppose, till I have everything ready.

For now, trial and error on my own with whatever I happen to have!

 

Thank you for the small dose of reality- Getting lost in delusions is inconvenient and time consuming...

 

I apologise profusely if I've come off as rude at all- Didn't mean to, but I might've..

[T.D. Rabbit]

31 minutes ago, RedPie said:

You answered your question right here. 

True- I was more on about a better method to get input. Someone suggested via PM, well, PMs as a method to get input. I might ask about.

[Mercian]

6 hours ago, T.D. Rabbit said:

However, I would like to get any designs ready so I can at least make models, probably out of air-dry clay. Also pitch them to appropriately skilled friends, because I have almost no artistic ability whatsoever.

 

I have two pieces of advice that I wish to offer to you:

 

1) In my capacity as a person who definitely has no artistic ability whatsoever, I advise you to download some open-source CAD software.

In my experience, CAD software makes drawing/designing proof-of-concept models (or anything else) much easier!

 

CAD software enables you to zoom-in and zoom-out of the design, alter widths, curves, angles etc precisely, and really easily; it lets you display different components on different ‘layers’ and make each ‘layer’ visible/invisible or editable/non-editable as necessary; it enables you to save different versions of the file - e.g. to have one ‘file copy’ and one ‘working copy’, so that you don’t ever accidentally destroy all your work with one mistake - and especially; it features an ‘undo’ button!

 

2) if you are considering the possibility of trying to manufacture and sell your type of fountain pen, one of the first things that you ought to do is discuss the feasibility, processes involved in - and the costs - of manufacturing a pen to your design. With Mechanical Engineers/Materials Scientists, and with Production Engineers!

You might have the best idea in the world - but if the pen is extremely difficult to manufacture, or extremely expensive to manufacture (e.g. because of difficulty/cost of sourcing the materials involved, difficulties of working them, or the laws around safe handling of them) your idea may not be viable as a business.

That all said, I wish you the best of luck with it 

 

[A Smug Dill]

1 hour ago, T.D. Rabbit said:

I have some level of knowledge, at least when it comes to the mechanics of the pen.

 

I meant know-how of tooling and manufacturing in industrialised processes — with the focus on execution as stated — as opposed to the technical design “on paper” of the writing instrument. Cost-efficiency, output consistency, and being able to avoid rework and waste arising from errors/failures to conform to design specifications are some of the keys to success as a producer of goods, never mind how original or innovative the design of the items my be.

[Surlyprof]

If you are considering patenting your design, I would avoid posting it on a public forum.  Any posting of your design on a public forum would nullify your ability to apply for a patent (since it would then be public domain knowledge).  If you are thinking of “publishing” (posting) it on a public forum, I would suggest applying for a provisional patent which is a relatively inexpensive way of staking your ownership of the intellectual property.  Here is the link to the USPTO.gov site on applying provisional patents.  It may or may not apply to you depending on where you live.  I haven’t read that application lately but it used to mean that, by applying for the provisional patent, you would be applying for the official patent within one year.  Once the provisional patent is filed, the design will have become publicly accessible. 

[T.D. Rabbit]

20 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

I meant know-how of tooling and manufacturing in industrialised processes — with the focus on execution as stated — as opposed to the technical design “on paper” of the writing instrument. Cost-efficiency, output consistency, and being able to avoid rework and waste arising from errors/failures to conform to design specifications are some of the keys to success as a producer of goods, never mind how original or innovative the design of the items my be.

Ah, sorry- I misunderstood. True, on paper and practically are two very different things, breathing the acrid smoke from a chemistry lab while people are performing the chromyl chloride test will tell you just that...

[T.D. Rabbit]

19 hours ago, Surlyprof said:

If you are considering patenting your design, I would avoid posting it on a public forum.  Any posting of your design on a public forum would nullify your ability to apply for a patent (since it would then be public domain knowledge).  If you are thinking of “publishing” (posting) it on a public forum, I would suggest applying for a provisional patent which is a relatively inexpensive way of staking your ownership of the intellectual property.  Here is the link to the USPTO.gov site on applying provisional patents.  It may or may not apply to you depending on where you live.  I haven’t read that application lately but it used to mean that, by applying for the provisional patent, you would be applying for the official patent within one year.  Once the provisional patent is filed, the design will have become publicly accessible. 

Huh, I did not know these existed. I'll read up about any similar types in India. Thank you!

[T.D. Rabbit]

20 hours ago, Mercian said:

 

I have two pieces of advice that I wish to offer to you:

 

1) In my capacity as a person who definitely has no artistic ability whatsoever, I advise you to download some open-source CAD software.

In my experience, CAD software makes drawing/designing proof-of-concept models (or anything else) much easier!

 

CAD software enables you to zoom-in and zoom-out of the design, alter widths, curves, angles etc precisely, and really easily; it lets you display different components on different ‘layers’ and make each ‘layer’ visible/invisible or editable/non-editable as necessary; it enables you to save different versions of the file - e.g. to have one ‘file copy’ and one ‘working copy’, so that you don’t ever accidentally destroy all your work with one mistake - and especially; it features an ‘undo’ button!

 

2) if you are considering the possibility of trying to manufacture and sell your type of fountain pen, one of the first things that you ought to do is discuss the feasibility, processes involved in - and the costs - of manufacturing a pen to your design. With Mechanical Engineers/Materials Scientists, and with Production Engineers!

You might have the best idea in the world - but if the pen is extremely difficult to manufacture, or extremely expensive to manufacture (e.g. because of difficulty/cost of sourcing the materials involved, difficulties of working them, or the laws around safe handling of them) your idea may not be viable as a business.

That all said, I wish you the best of luck with it 

 

Wow, the thought of CAD software didn't even cross my mind.. Possibly because I'm intimidated by the chaos, or maybe because I was too excited to sketch it out in ink... Good idea, I'll try that out!

 

The 'undo' button is something I often wish for when making physical artwork or diagrams. I think I once searched for 'ctrl-z' on a test paper.

 

A lot of my old seniors are studying as (to be? as? what?) mechanical engineers, so yeah, I'll talk to them about the details. Production e

I might have to leave my glass tube idea (Mentioned in another post) behind for something far more logical such as acrylic or plastic, I'll have to improve on certain systems I'm designing for it, etc...

 

The laws will be okay with this one, I think. Not like that other time I tried to make something with coffee.. But that's another story altogether.

 

Of course, even the market has to be considered, if I start in this country, I'll probably fail to sell to anyone beyond a few enthusiasts. But with good advertising, maybe the impossible is possible.

 

Thank you!

Good time to come up with a sign-off.

 

Regards

May your tines always remain aligned (Not original, a friend said that to me today!!),

T.D. Rabbit.

[BobGast]

I totally get your concern about sharing your design, especially with how easy it is for ideas to get taken. When I’ve shared ideas online before, I usually try to show just enough to get feedback without revealing everything. Maybe post a rough sketch or ask about specific details, like materials or ergonomics, to keep the core of your idea safe. You could also document everything as you go or look into copyrighting your design later, just in case. It’s great to get input from a community like this, though, since they’re really knowledgeable, and most people are respectful about others’ ideas.

 

[AmandaW]

The ideas being worth nothing really gets up my nose. Cos those with alll their manufacturing facilitirs and lousy ideas end up with... landfill. Or stealing ideas which they then claim to be worth nothing.

 

T.D. keep your ideas to yourself. Play with the clay. Play with CAD. Sketch. Study. Research. Start a design notebook to keep all your ideas together. You have time on your side. Don't give away anything.

 

[T.D. Rabbit]

On 11/29/2024 at 2:30 AM, BobGast said:

I totally get your concern about sharing your design, especially with how easy it is for ideas to get taken. When I’ve shared ideas online before, I usually try to show just enough to get feedback without revealing everything. Maybe post a rough sketch or ask about specific details, like materials or ergonomics, to keep the core of your idea safe. You could also document everything as you go or look into copyrighting your design later, just in case. It’s great to get input from a community like this, though, since they’re really knowledgeable, and most people are respectful about others’ ideas.

 

That sounds like a good idea... There's probably going to be (As with anything I make) a very specific way to put things together, so individual diagrams shared shouldn't be risky.

[T.D. Rabbit]

On 11/29/2024 at 6:00 AM, AmandaW said:

The ideas being worth nothing really gets up my nose. Cos those with alll their manufacturing facilitirs and lousy ideas end up with... landfill. Or stealing ideas which they then claim to be worth nothing.

 

T.D. keep your ideas to yourself. Play with the clay. Play with CAD. Sketch. Study. Research. Start a design notebook to keep all your ideas together. You have time on your side. Don't give away anything.

 

I hope to be able to make the opposite of landfill, eh... 

And time? Yes, I have a lot of time, not counting these next few months with entrances and whatnot. I spend most of that time watching the most random things on youtube, though. Oops. 

[Surlyprof]

On 11/28/2024 at 4:30 PM, AmandaW said:

The ideas being worth nothing really gets up my nose. Cos those with alll their manufacturing facilitirs and lousy ideas end up with... landfill. Or stealing ideas which they then claim to be worth nothing.

 

T.D. keep your ideas to yourself. Play with the clay. Play with CAD. Sketch. Study. Research. Start a design notebook to keep all your ideas together. You have time on your side. Don't give away anything.

 

 

...and clearly document and date all of those images, models, etc. in a format that will hold up in an intellectual property defense.  Also, the better you can document and date your experimentation and innovations, the easier it will be to generate the applications for patents.

[T.D. Rabbit]

6 hours ago, Surlyprof said:

 

...and clearly document and date all of those images, models, etc. in a format that will hold up in an intellectual property defense.  Also, the better you can document and date your experimentation and innovations, the easier it will be to generate the applications for patents.

That... Will be hard. I'm not organised at all.

But I'll try.

[mke]

Questions for you (you don't need to answer them here).

 

• is there a (market) need for your invention
• did you do a thorough patent search (do you actually know how to search)
• is it a novelty
• has it an inventive step
• can you write your patent (example: https://patents.google.com/patent/US20240025202A1/en )
• can you pay the fees in every country where your invention should be protected
• can you defend your patent and go after the people copying your invention - even in foreign countries
• who would buy your invention if you cannot produce by yourself

 

The cost of a patent can vary depending on several factors, including: 

• Complexity of the invention
• Objections raised by patent examiners
• Number of tasks the patent attorney needs to perform
• Territory
• Duration of protection
• Whether protection is requested in different large markets

Some costs associated with an international patent application include: 

• International filing fees: $1,200–$1,500
• Search fee: $400–$2,200
• Transmittal fee: $50–$400
• Attorney fees: $100–$500 or more per hour

And then come the maintenance fees in several markets to keep your patent valid.

 

 

 

 

 

[bsenn]

A few general notes - dated sketches and notes are all well and good, but US patents are "first to file". A patent application by Party A beats dated sketches by Party B (who could be the actual inventor).

 

US patents protect Make, Use, Sell. Anything patented in the US cannot be made, sold, or used (commercially) in the US without the patent holder's permission. Among other things, this means a protected design could not be made by someone in another country and then sold in the US without the patent holder's permission.

 

Disclaimer - I am not an IP attorney.

 

Brian