Semantics

[Tommaso Santojanni]

Good morning.

 

May I ask what's the difference between good calligraphy, good penmanship or good handwriting? 

 

(English is not my first language)

 

Thank you for your help. 

 

Tommaso

[Format]

52 minutes ago, Tommaso Santojanni said:

Good morning.

 

May I ask what's the difference between good calligraphy, good penmanship or good handwriting? 

 

(English is not my first language)

 

Thank you for your help. 

 

Tommaso

 

This is something that everyone will have their own opinion about Tommasso.

 

But, here goes.  Good Calligraphy is knowing how to create the huge number of different styles of letters, possibly for no practical purpose other than art. Over 100 years ago there was a purpose, for example it was the the practice of of law firms to present the minutes of action from a clients meeting very quickly, usually on their desk before they got in to work the next day. This meant that the law firm needed to employ teams of scribes to hand write the

notes, sometimes 20+ pages, too much for one person so several people would work on the same document and, of course, in the same style and size.

 

Modern Calligraphy can take you into a lot of different areas, including graphics and design, 

 

This article may help

 

https://www.rd.com/list/examples-of-perfect-handwriting/

 

 

Good Penmanship. Some people would argue that the art of good penmanship has almost died, probably reaching its peak 150 years ago. It combines calligraphic skills and good handwriting but takes it up to a new level.  You would pick up a letter with good penmanship and forget words like nice, pretty or easy on the eye, the word would be beautiful. It would combine right and left margins being justified without breaking the word so you alter the spacing of the words as you go, along the line. It would typically have a wonderful flow throw the the lines with long tailed lower case letters  and almost a flamboyant style.

 

 

We probably attempt good penmanship more often than you think. We write a birthday card, not in tiny handwriting in a corner but in a good size, central in the card and hopefully use a little style in our handwriting for a special moment.

 

Good handwriting. Perhaps in its simplest form, handwriting that is easy to read, ideally in cursive with some consideration of the writer as to how can they make these words look legible in addition to attractive, perhaps with an oblique nib.

 

 

[Tommaso Santojanni]

Thank you. This is quite helpful.

 

We recently moved to England where I am trying to teach elegant handwriting to my daughter (using books and other resources) and these terms seemed interchangeable and the dictionary definitions didn't seem to help differentiate them.

 

Your perspective lends a useful separation. Thank you. 

 

Tommaso

[Format]

My pleasure.

 

It must be a joy to sit down with a young daughter on a rainy sunday afternoon and to take out the handwriting and drawing books, pens and pencils and to practice to make perfect.

 

A friend of mine took some notes for a business meeting, it was her job to do the Minutes for circulation after the meeting which lasted almost two hours. 

 

When she looked at her notes the following day, she could not read anything that she had written, it was a mess.  She practiced each day, writing 888888888888, OOOOOOOO, and every letter on a line. it took a month but she eventually saw that the 8 at the start of the line was identical to the 8 at the end of the line. she now has beautiful handwriting, it is fit for purpose.

[HDoug]

What a great question! To me, caligraphy (beautiful writing) is an end unto itself and the esthetic appearance is all. Handwriting is communicating using handwritten words, and good handwriting displays penmanship, the masterful and proper handling of the pen.

[Tommaso Santojanni]

8 hours ago, Format said:

It must be a joy to sit down with a young daughter on a rainy sunday afternoon and to take out the handwriting and drawing books, pens and pencils and to practice to make perfect.

 

 

Both a joy and a suffering.

 

I have limited time to enjoy my 9 y.o. daughter who longs to please me and it breaks my heart to use this little time, and exploit her desire to please her father, to add more learning exercises, instead of playing with her, or reading a book together, or ...

 

She's so compliant to my requests that I feel very bad to miss the opportunity to let her have fun with me. I know that it's for her own good, and I know that being a father does not means being a friend, but ... it's challenging. 

 

I was instructed by a priest who held a stick in his hand and would swish my fingers, frequently breaking my pens. I never enjoyed penmanship but, today, I'm grateful that I endured that torture. I want to bestow the same advantage, but employing very different methods.

 

 

5 hours ago, HDoug said:

What a great question! To me, caligraphy (beautiful writing) is an end unto itself and the esthetic appearance is all. Handwriting is communicating using handwritten words, and good handwriting displays penmanship, the masterful and proper handling of the pen.

Thank you. I find your description too very apt. In fact, I find it rather accurate. Thank you!

Edited July 29 by Tommaso Santojanni

[dms525]

My thoughts mirror Format's, except that I don't equate either calligraphy or good penmanship with cursive writing or writing requiring an oblique pen. And, to be a commercial lettering artist, one must certainly master multiple hands (Arnold Bank said at least 24.), this is not in my mind intrinsic to the definition of calligraphy.

 

Calligraphy is an art. It is much more than how letters are formed. It entails production of beautiful documents. So, in addition to letter form, there is letter spacing, word spacing, inter-lineal spacing, margins and, sometimes, the addition of decorative elements such as drop caps, flourishes, etc.

 

Good handwriting is defined more pragmatically than aesthetically. It must be legible, above all. It should also be as fast as possible without sacrificing legibility. If it is pleasing to the eye, that is a bonus. While there are defined handwriting styles, individuality is more an attribute of handwriting than calligraphy. But calligraphy can be very novel.

 

There is another class of lettering that gets called calligraphy, but I am not sure that is proper. That is the production of more or less abstract art using either letter forms or lettering techniques. Legibility may be minimal to absent.

 

David

[Tommaso Santojanni]

This is an interesting perspective, David. Thank you. 

 

So you partially overlap penmanship and calligraphy, in the sense the both address more than the letters themselves and are both concerned with the visual impact of the document?

 

Did I understand correctly? 

 

Tommaso 

[inkstainedruth]

12 hours ago, Format said:

My pleasure.

 

It must be a joy to sit down with a young daughter on a rainy sunday afternoon and to take out the handwriting and drawing books, pens and pencils and to practice to make perfect.

 

A friend of mine took some notes for a business meeting, it was her job to do the Minutes for circulation after the meeting which lasted almost two hours. 

 

When she looked at her notes the following day, she could not read anything that she had written, it was a mess.  She practiced each day, writing 888888888888, OOOOOOOO, and every letter on a line. it took a month but she eventually saw that the 8 at the start of the line was identical to the 8 at the end of the line. she now has beautiful handwriting, it is fit for purpose.

That sounds like my notes for the last General Philosophy class before the final exam when I was in college (after pulling 2 all-nighters in a row, and the class was an evening one... after having had a class at 9 AM and one in the afternoon).  And that evening class involved the prof going through his own 20 page article about how various philosophers' work wasn't what they claimed....  

I would likely have had trouble following that class even if I had had a good night's sleep the night before....

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

[Format]

8 minutes ago, inkstainedruth said:

That sounds like my notes for the last General Philosophy class before the final exam when I was in college (after pulling 2 all-nighters in a row, and the class was an evening one... after having had a class at 9 AM and one in the afternoon).  And that evening class involved the prof going through his own 20 page article about how various philosophers' work wasn't what they claimed....  

I would likely have had trouble following that class even if I had had a good night's sleep the night before....

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

 

 

Feeling a bit guilty on that Ruth. I worked for a family firm and my specialist area was advising Companies, I drew the short straw and had to take the owners son with me for a meeting where I did most of the talking, it went on for two hours, six people and they were all taking notes. Knowing that we would have to do Minutes of Meeting I nudged the numpty son to make similar notes, he was staring at the ceiling dreaming of girls called Angelina.

 

He bent over his notebook and started writing. Next morning I asked him for his notes.

 

'Ooh, ahh, well actually there is a problem'

 

'Like what?'

 

'I realised that I should be taking notes so I just pretended'

 

Forum rules prevent me from accurately stating my next three words

 

 

 

[inkstainedruth]

I can just imagine what those next three words were.... 

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[amberleadavis]

@Format I loved the story.  I also thought your response was very thoughtful.  From a pragmatic point of view, I think most people use penmanship and handwriting interchangeably unless you are talking to fellow FPNers. 

 

[torstar]

People will pay for another's  good calligraphy?

 

 

[2ouvenir]

They share the same characteristic of producing writing that is visually appealing but calligraphy is more about art and design, penmanship is more about technique and consistency, and handwriting is more personal.

 

Penmanship is taught to most people at school, you make it yours by writing in your own handwriting, and you need to study in depth for quite some bit for calligraphy.

[dms525]

On 7/29/2024 at 12:29 PM, Tommaso Santojanni said:

This is an interesting perspective, David. Thank you. 

 

So you partially overlap penmanship and calligraphy, in the sense the both address more than the letters themselves and are both concerned with the visual impact of the document?

 

Did I understand correctly? 

 

Tommaso 

 

I think so. Good penmanship can meet all of my criteria for calligraphy. I participate in a letter exchange group. About a quarter of the participants are or have been professional calligraphers. Some of the handwritten letters I have received are as beautiful as any writing I have seen. That is, they are calligraphic.

 

David

 

 

[Format]

There is an FPN Member Caliken who produces some extra ordinary work in a huge range of calligraphy and penmanship, stunning work.

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/profile/5205-caliken/

 

 

I urge you to take a look at his posts, sadly less frequent than they used to be.

 

I still separate the skills of penmanship which I see as a whole page piece of work to calligraphy which could be a single illuminated letter or a word in blockhand.

 

 

[Tommaso Santojanni]

God morning ...

 

I am intrigued as I recognise merit in both your last two posts.

 

I have researched more the semantic origins and current use of birth terms and, as initially replied, there are multiple interpretations.

 

Thanks also to the help of those who replied here, I am inclined to consider penmanship as a term that defines a skill that elevates writing (to an art?), often employing the art of calligraphy, the latter referring to beautiful images, generally letters. While handwriting merely refers to one's way of writing.

 

Thank you for contributing to appreciating the difference amongst these terms. 

 

Tommaso

 

Edited July 31 by Tommaso Santojanni

[Format]

You may also be interested in a TV program on the BBC,  Tommaso.

 

Clive Myrie  had a series on Italian culture, a country that he adores, one of his visits was to a calligrapher, just five minutes of TV but worth watching.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p0fdr6m1/clive-myries-italian-road-trip

[Tommaso Santojanni]

Thank you, Format.

 

We don't like BBC and don't pay the subscription. I cannot watch BBC (unless it's on YouTube) in case they log my IP. I couldn't find it on YouTube. 

 

In which town was the calligrapher?

 

Tommaso

Edited July 31 by Tommaso Santojanni

[Format]

25 minutes ago, Tommaso Santojanni said:

Thank you, Format.

 

We don't like BBC and don't pay the subscription. I cannot watch BBC (unless it's on YouTube) in case they log my IP. I couldn't find it on YouTube. 

 

In which town was the calligrapher?

 

Tommaso

 

 

Sorry, I cannot remember. It was the classic situation of the calligrapher welcoming Clive to her studio, showed him the basics and then he 'had a go', from memory he prepared something for his daughter.

 

Edit, I have done some research and I think that the person was Betty Soldi, I remember the studio as shown on the website and that she used a grey Lamy for some of her work on Tv and is seen on the website.

 

https://www.bettysoldi.com/