Can one smooth the point of a dip pen nib?

[The Scribe]

I recently purchased a selection of dip pen nibs for Copperplate and Engrosser's Script. Some nibs perform beautifully smoothly on the upstroke like the Zebra G and the Brause EF66. However then there are the Hunt nibs I purchased like the Hunt 101 and 22B which are very scratchy! The Gillot 303 and 404 suffer the same fate. 

While I can ameliorate the scratchiness by using really smooth paper like Rhodia as well as using a very light touch I am wondering if I can use the same techniques and materials (e.g. 3M micromesh) to lightly round and polish the tine tips of these nibs as I have successfully used on my fountain pens?

 

Anyone had experience doing this?

[AAAndrew]

As with fountain pen nibs, first check to make sure the tines are aligned.  Also, all dip pens require a much lighter touch than tipped fountain pens, but some nibs, especially very fine nibs, require an extremely light touch. Vintage nibs will be somewhat less likely to be scratchy (until they start to wear out when rust on the very tip can make them feel scratchy even on the downstroke) because they are just better made. The finer the pen, the more careful you have to be on the upstroke.

 

And paper makes a HUGE difference with untipped dip pen nibs. Between the large amount of ink they deposit (especially compared to fountain pens and roller balls), as well as the sharp tips, paper makes a big difference. You do need smoother paper, or else you'll most likely get paper fibers stuck in the tines which will then pull ink and deposit it in places you don't want. I've found Rhodia works great as well as Black and Red notebooks. As for regular paper, the ink will defeat most copy paper, except I've found 20% cotton laser paper seems to work ok with most dip pen inks. The 100% cotton handles the ink well, but will almost certainly cause your nib to catch on the upstrokes, and and will definitely cause it to pick up the fibers. 

 

All of that being said, one of the good things about dip pen nibs is that they're relatively less expensive, and made to be disposable, so try it. See what happens. There's no real downside beyond ruining a nib and learning something.  Before dip pens became made in factories, they were made by hand, individually, and were expensive. The first steel pen maker in the US, Peregrine Williamson, made some for president Thomas Jefferson. And in their correspondence, Williamson advised Jefferson how to "mend" his pens with a whetstone, same principle as the micromesh. I even have one example of an advertisement for mending steel pens as a service. So, it's been done, but once pens became industrially made, they went from $1 a pen to $0.75 for a gross (144) of them, so were considered throw-away. 

[Bo Bo Olson]

Red and Black uses oxford Optic 90g paper....one of my favorites. A good paper when looking for shading also.

[The Scribe]

@AAAndrew thanks for the detailed response. Much appreciated. The first things I had done is consider my paper and ink used. I already have a VERY light touch. I luckily always have had one thanks to my classical art training years ago. As regards paper I am using Rhodia, finding it well sized. I have found iron gall ink is hands down the best, (currently using Mccaffery's), as well as Walnut ink.

What I have done is check out the tine points under a 10x loupe on a Zebra G (which is a really well made and finished nib) and compared it to a variety of scratchy nibs, and it's clear what the problem is. A picture is worth a 1000 words so check out my little diagram below.

I recon just a few light figure of eights on a fine micromesh sheet (thinking a foam backed sheet which is more forgiving) will shave off the 90° angle at the tip and put a more gentle polished curve on the tip, reducing drag and scratching. 

 

I'll report back my results. I am hoping there is someone out there who has actually done this and can give me some pointers , excuse the pun.

 

I believe the problem probably is that the modern mass produced nib is stamped from sheet metal and then formed in a press, with any hand tuning left out. So the stamped squared-off profile at the tip is left as is, without any finishing/polishing being done. The exception is the Zebra G nib from Japan, which clearly has had some finishing work, otherwise they wouldn't have a clearly slightly rounded tip.

 

 

[arcfide]

The finishing on the tip of the nibs very much depends on the price point and the intended usage. Zebra G nibs are meant as artist/illustrator nibs, not as copperplate or Spencerian nibs. As such, Zebra G nibs benefit from being rounder, because they allow for a more dynamic range of shapes. however, for very high-end ornamental penmanship, Zebra G nibs are considered somewhat too imprecise, largely because of the polishing that helps to make them more forgiving. Without that sharp point, it can be hard to create certain highly precise strokes at all sizes, and you lose some of the dynamic range of the nib. 

 

So, yes, you can round nibs off, but you will potentially be trading off precision and line quality. In the past, famous penman were known to save blunted nibs for their personal correspondence, while they reserved fresh, very sharp nibs for their professional work. They would often limit the use of a given nib for professional work to a surprisingly small number of pages before they considered them too dull to work well, needing either sharpening or to be used for personal stuff instead. 

[The Scribe]

Thanks @arcfide. That's fascinating info. I have never used any vintage nibs. Are the tine tips exactly the same as their contemporary siblings? Or were they better finished?

 

I actually got to thinking about the actual physical characteristics of the point once rounded and what it could do to the sharpness of a stroke…just after I posted my reply. Correct me if I am wrong but slightly rounding the bottom horizontal edge would just allow less drag, while if one rounded the outside vertical edges of the tip tines then one would be removing the shoulders that helps lay down a sharp line of ink. However if I don't round off the vertical edges then it should theoretically not affect anything!?

Do you agree?

The nibs I would test this on are:

Leonardt Principal EF

Gillot 303 and 404

Hunt 101 and 22B

 

Under a 10x loupe the Brause EF66 has a tip with a slightly rounded horizontal bottom edge and sharp vertical edges. It isn't scratchy at all and has a beautiful action. The above 3 nib's tip edges (vertical and horizontal) are all perfectly squared off and are super scratchy. By polishing I would be attempting to emulate the tip profile of the Brause nib. I would love to see the tip profile of a vintage Leonardt Principal, which would be my guide. 

 

I guess the proof will be in the experimentation itself. I am talking about a very gentle polishing so that I remove that sharp 90° horizontal edge the point rides on. The smoothing may do nothing at all, or improve control and avoid nib shake on upstrokes. 

 

5 hours ago, The Scribe said:

@AAAndrew thanks for the detailed response. Much appreciated. The first things I have done is consider my paper and ink used. I already have a VERY light touch. I luckily always have had onr thanks to my classical art training years ago :). As regards paper I am using Rhodia, finding it well sized. I have found iron gall ink is hands down the best, using Mccaffery's. 

What I have done is check out the tine points under a 10x loupe on a Zebra G (which is a really well made and finished nib) and compared it to a variety of scratchy nibs, and it's clear what the problem is. A picture is worth a 1000 words so check out my little diagram below.

I recon just a few light figure of eights in a fine micromesh sheet (thinking a foam backed sheet which is more forgiving) will shave off the 90° angle at the tip and put a small curve on the tip, reducing drag and scratching. 

 

I'll report back my results. I am hoping there is someone out there who has actually done this and can give me some pointers excuse the pun.

 

 

 

[Stompie]

I sometimes polish my nibs using 12 000 micromesh.

Take it slowly as you do that, just a few, perhaps 5 stokes at most and then check the result. You can always polish more but once you go too far you can not repair it back to original again.

 

I also use that micromesh for my fountain pen polishing as well as knife sharpening.

 

Whatever you choose to do, never flex the tines open when polishing as that will round off the inside of the tines and create what is called Baby Bottom and that is another whole set of issues to try fix. 

[The Scribe]

Thanks @stompie. Yeah I know all about blinking baby's bottom 😂. I once received a new Kaweko nib that suffered from that aflixion. Hell that took some intricate resurfacing of the tip to grind it out. I managed to fix it, but it is exacting work! I have a magnifying headset (up to 20x magnification) with integrated headlamp, a must when doing nib repairs! 

P S. For my knife sharpening I use Japanese Water Stones. I HIGHLY recommend them. Trust me, once you have mastered the art of sharpening with water stones you will be able to sharpen knives and tools till they are basically scalpel sharp! Give them a try. It's actually quite fun to learn.

 

Does anyone know where to get Micromesh locally in Cape Town? 

[Claes]

>Does anyone know where to get Micromesh locally in Cape Town? 

 

Why not use google, or duckduckgo, or...

Search for

micromesh site:.za

 

PS: Seen this one? https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1TW411S7xu/?uid=425631545734313153377875

 

[Bo Bo Olson]

The smooth side of buff sticks.

.....................................

There are at least two strengths of lapping material that I got with my old Richard Binder smoothing set, that I have, but don't use, in I'm not looking for butter smooth.

The colored/green sheet = 1.0 micron

The white sheet = 0.3 micron

[The Scribe]

@Claes thanks so much for that link to the vid on sword sharpening. Yup that shsss shsss sound as the blade glides over the Waterstone is music to my ears! It took me about a year to perfect the techniques, but once one has muscle memory for the different honing angles it is a very rewarding skill. I haven't needed to buy a new knife of any kind in our kitchen for years. One can shave with them lol. Although if one isn't careful one could loose a finger! Ok I will stop now...I am supposed to be talking about pens after all. 😎

[Bo Bo Olson]

15 degrees of shaving sharp, is not what I want for my kitchen knives which is more 20/22 degrees.

I got rid of my 7" Marine KaBar (I prefer the 5" AF Kabar) and 7" Buck General so don't have a knife that I'd sharpen to 25 degrees, unless I get around to sharpening up our cleaver. I have a couple Finnish knives that I kept, even though over here in Europe I'll never get to use. Who knows when a man might need a small sharp knife.

 

I have three 'short court swords', sharp enough to poke someone with. They came in because folks got tired of stumbling over rapiers and having to fight duels ...that kind of sword killed many more in duels than rapiers.

My forged machete is sharp enough, as is my 1851 Swedish artilleryman's bolo machete.

I have 8 sabres, an 1895 English Infantry Officer's sword and three short swords, that are sharp pointed enough to work. The English sword was edge ground away so it's point only, but it is my most  elaborate blade.

 

I was a one sword noobie (that English sword), when I bought at a live auction as original, a replica US Army 1850 Officers & Staff sword.

My US Army 1902 Model Officer and NCO sword...mine a SGT-Major's one, could be sharpened up with a round watered peddled grindstone.

The Toledo marked steel of that sword, has absolutely nothing to do with the chanted banded iron/steel of renaissance and later great flexible steelToledo swords; which no one can make anymore. (Chants were the timing process there and with any other great sword. The Japanese black sand sword is made of inferior iron...but it was all they had. Similar to the Scythian black sand swords; again all they had. Chanting  was the stop watch.)

 

The Dutch 1900 Cutlass could be brought into sharp with a few hours with an Arkansas stone, starting with rough, medium and fine.

A dremmel is too fast, and would overheat the steel. It is short enough to be used inside a house, if one bends one's knees. It can be thrusted. It was the last of such real war swords, and any armory could have sharpened it up quickly. In the European dominated world seas, a cutlass killed the most men...as I have read. More than the dueling short sword.

It is a handy sword. Simple workman sword.

 

I don't have a picture of one, Szabla wz. 34 (literally "1934 Pattern Szabla") Is the greatest sword of the 20th century...yes, better than Japanese. It don't shatter if touched wrong. The steel is superb. When and if I get one of those, some of my German swords can be put up for auction.

 

Just pretty, I have an German Enlisted sabre, that is built the same but with a plain blade as the sabre below.

This is a ceremonial sabre of the German King of Baden regiments.

Auction house pictures.

 

My pocket knives; are also not sharpened razor sharp. (Sadly, down to grabbing one for cutting a cardboard box open.) Too many of them 10-12, and not used much, outside my Gentleman pocket knives.The belt Buck second model Ranger is the knife I'd have to grab now I got rid of my bear knives.

 

If I was going to be working with a pocket knife, I have a large Opinel, that fits the hand as perfectly as a pocket knife can....slow to open, won't close on you. Not an emergency knife, but one for work one knows about ahead of time.

 

I have given three of my pocket knives away to young lads over a decade or so, two Swiss Army knives. And, one who lives upstairs, to his mother to give to him when he is 21, in 14 years because I'm not going to be there...a horn handled Laguiole. A mature man's pocket knife. He will probably get a Swiss pocket knife, with in a few years.

I have showed him how to sharpen a knife on a stone...next, comes him doing it,  alone, and learning the muscle memory needed to do it by hand.

 

Though there are angle holders I've read about, but I learned to sharpen on a stone with out that, back in B&W TV days.

I've old oil sharpening stones/3 levels,............was once interested in Japanese Water Stones, but decided, what I have would do.

 

I bought a Lansky sharpener...that I never got around to mastering it...

If a knife is fairly sharp,,,ie not too dull, it can be adequately sharpened rapidly on a smooth oil stone. If dull one uses the middle stone. No knife of mine has ever been that dull to really use the rough stone of the three stone set.

 

What I wanted for 50 + years was a 15-18" long x 3" wide Arkansas stone. I didn't really use my knives enough to justify that............I'd had to go a long way out of my way to get one.

 

No, the cellar is now, and always has been too full of my wife's flea market buys for me to set up any kind of shop. I'd have gotten a belt sander....but that would have been costly perfection, when  a normal set of oil stones did the job.

 

[Claes]

Moinchen, Bobo!

Arkansas stone, eh? Don't you live relatively close to where "Belgische Brocken" 'grow' (as the rock hounds call it)? Thüringen is also known to have fine sharpening stones... ping if you want/need more exact locations.

MfG

Claes in Lund, Schweden

[Bo Bo Olson]

14 hours ago, Claes said:

"Belgische Brocken

I have heard of that for the last 30 years, and am glad to know Germany also has some.

As an American, I think Arkansas first, for stones.

[Claes]

Duh!

W-e-l-l, not really Germany, but in Belgium :-)))

Arkansas stones = novaculite, i.e. silica.

Belgische Brocken = grenade particles.

https://survivalmesserguide.de/belgischer-brocken/

https://www.belgischerbrocken.de/

https://archeology.uark.edu/novaculite/index.html?pageName=Novaculite as Whetstone Rock

 

 

 

[Bo Bo Olson]

29 minutes ago, Claes said:

https://archeology.uark.edu/novaculite/index.html?pageName=Novaculite as Whetstone Rock

I use the 1895 Montgomery Ward, and that 1902 Sears and Roebucks, replica catalogs constantly, to price items...add 30% for freight and another 20% for store profit, in there was not any noticeable inflation in gold dollar days. (I do/did cross check vs government price index of the day.)

 

What did they have?

One is a barber. Which razor, which brush, made by whom? Barber shop furniture. All needed to be ID'ed. Most men never shaved at home. Once a week, or if a dandy, twice a week. It wasn't until 1880 that sharp looking suits came into mode; before that was looked winkled, slept in them the fashion, even by Presidents.

What tools in the kitchen were used.....and the the brand new Dover Eggbeater(the normal one we have now)  was such a wonder tool. Instead of three women, taking three hours to beat and make a cake. It could be done by one woman in just 20 minutes of hard work. 

What  were the best hammers. Other tools they had that are not all that out of date. Clothing. Low class suits, medium, and German Imported Saxony clay worsted wool....merino wool.

Out side of Spain, only Saxony had merino sheep; so produced the best wool, and the Germans being so under paid they could slightly undercut British or French industry; their third best was only a hair off of which ever was second place.

The US made a the best affordable guns....everything else was 4th class, behind the Germans. Outside the locomotives.

French straight razors are still the best...one can get  for extra, one that sings for a number of months before metal fatigue silences them.

 

I go back to the Atari in the office days of IT....and many items in my then office I have found in either of those catalogs and the Office Museum com.

 

Civilization started in 1885 with the invention of the fly swatter and the electric fans.

They had lots of glass and other types of traps for flies; but nothing die now!!!....and they had prettier screens than we have today with pictures printed in the screen.

The turkey feather duster was invented by a woman up in Wisconsin or Michigan @ 1880 but hadn't made it's way into my book.

A Texan woman in or about that time invented the paper bag. If one was poor or middle class one had the item brown paper wrapped & tied, and put in ones woven basket. If one was better off, it was delivered.

 

Fly paper was invented in Germany, but lay in a wet saucer on the counter. The Americans perfected it so it hung in spirals down from the ceiling......!@#$#%^ after my book.

The good old days; where horseshite was piled two stores high in vacant lots in NY city or any other city. The wonderful smell of leaky car motors and it's blueish exhaust was ever so welcomed as part of a wonderful future. The plague of sharp biting Horse Flies came to an end.

.........................

I had originally heard of the Blue Belgium stone, not the yellow. 15cm, is too short I'm would more prefer something near 40cm or near 15-16 inches. Something I could put a bit of arm into. Could be I don't need that any more, not having any 7" bladed knives. 9 inches would do.

 

Now to start my world famous dithering.....I'll know in a few years, on or before my 80th birthday, more than likely.

[AAAndrew]

I will admit my experience with modern nibs is limited, mainly a Zebra G and then a couple in a cheap "calligraphy" kit. The cheap ones were unusable, the Zebra G was ok. The rest of my experience is with hundreds of different kinds of vintage dip nibs from several different countries and multiple manufacturers. In general, just about every vintage nib I've used has been great. Some are more challenging, but it doesn't sound like that is your problem. It sounds like the modern nibs are mainly the trouble. 

 

I'd recommend trying the mesh, and also seeing if you can pick up some vintage nibs. Vintage Gillott 303 and 404 are great ones to start with. They are sharp and fine, but well-made. I saw someone on the Bay selling 3 of each for a total of $18. Not cheap, but a known quantity. The other option is to buy a big mixed lot and try out a bunch of different vintage pens and see what you like. Whatever you do, vintage is the way I would go. 

[Bo Bo Olson]

I may have missed it, but has the OP removed the oil on the nib by lick or match stick/lighter fire swipe?

I don't know if that has anything to do with the problem.