Parker Duofold Centennial 14K 585 nibs origin

[aurore]

32 minutes ago, Mercian said:

Further evidence for this explanation - that the shape in which a hallmark is contained indicates whether an item has been ‘Made in France’, or ‘Imported to France’ can be seen in the following photos:

 

Firstly, the 18k nib on my ‘W.-Germany’ Pelikan M800:

 

Notice that the ‘PF’ mark (for ‘Pelikan Fabrik’?) is stamped inside an oval, so it is the ‘responsibility mark’ of an importer of items to France.

 

Secondly, here is the 14k nib on my Parker 75, which was made in 1984 Q1, at Méru:

 

Notice that on this nib the ‘PP’ (separated by an upward-pointing arrow’) for ‘Parker Pens’ is stamped inside a straight-sided losange, so is the ‘responsibility mark’ for a manufacturer that is located in France.

 

Slàinte,
M.

 

Yes. But actually no. Hallmarks (not makers' marks) are defined by the French legislature. In case of 18ct made in France it is always the eagle, in case of 18ct imported to France it is a an owl (as shown above). The maker's mark is not what defines whether it was made in France or not.

[aurore]

1 hour ago, Mercian said:

My Pelikan M800’s nib has the same, Eagle-head, stamp on it, & the Swiss(?) ‘PF’ stamp too.

An explanation of the meaning of the Eagle-head (& ‘PF’) mark is given at:

https://www.pelikan-collectibles.com/en/Pelikan/Nibs/Nib-units-since-1929/index.html#heading_toc_j_14

 

Pelikan’s nibs are (& were) made in Germany, not in France.

 

Edit to add:

A far better source of information about the stamps on nibs is:

https://www.douane.gouv.fr/fiche/regles-de-marque-pour-la-garantie-des-metaux-precieux

 

In French (obviously), it states that importers can affix the Eagle-head mark (after samples of the item have been assayed), as long as they also include a ‘mark of responsibility’ - equivalent to the UK ‘sponsor’s mark’ - which, for importers, must be surrounded by an oval.

 

So, this suggests that the ‘PF’ mark on my Pelikan nib is a ‘responsibility mark’ for ‘Pelikan Fabrik’, and the fact that it is contained inside an oval shows that the nib has been imported to France.

The same page says that a French maker’s mark would be contained inside a diamond (‘losange’ en français).

 

So, if anyone has a nib in which the ‘PP’ (separated by an upward-pointing arrow) mark (or ‘PW’ mark) is contained within a diamond, that nib was made in France.

 

Whereas, if the ‘PP’ or ‘PW’ mark on their nib is inside an oval, that nib was imported to France.

 

The French hallmarks are clearly more-subtle, and contain more information, than do the British ones!
 

 

All this Pelikan marks ado has become almost legendary and misleading even for the company itself.

To cut the long story short: given that, what dies exactly indicate (in terms of the origin) a typical Duofold nib made from 1989 until 2010, which usually has a maker's mark but no hallmark? 🙂

 

[Mercian]

5 minutes ago, aurore said:

The maker's mark is not what defines whether it was made in France or not.

I didn’t say that it was.
 

I repeated the definition that is given on the website of the Customs Agency of the Government of France (click on the link at the bottom of my post just prior to the post that you quoted).

 

The shape inside which the ‘mark of responsibility’ is stamped indicates whether that ‘mark of responsibility’ refers to a manufacturer that is located inside France, or to an importer of items to France.

 

If you go to…

https://www.douane.gouv.fr/fiche/regles-de-marque-pour-la-garantie-des-metaux-precieux
 

…and read the third section from the top of the page (which is headed “Le titre des ouvrages en métaux précieux a jusqu'ici été garanti par un poinçon métallique...”…

 

…you will see their explanation of the definition.

[aurore]

44 minutes ago, Mercian said:

I didn’t say that it was.
 

I repeated the definition that is given on the website of the Customs Agency of the Government of France (click on the link at the bottom of my post just prior to the post that you quoted).

 

The shape inside which the ‘mark of responsibility’ is stamped indicates whether that ‘mark of responsibility’ refers to a manufacturer that is located inside France, or to an importer of items to France.

 

If you go to…

https://www.douane.gouv.fr/fiche/regles-de-marque-pour-la-garantie-des-metaux-precieux
 

…and read the third section from the top of the page (which is headed “Le titre des ouvrages en métaux précieux a jusqu'ici été garanti par un poinçon métallique...”…

 

…you will see their explanation of the definition.

 

My bad, I am sorry I somehow overlooked it, it too hot here on the Continent today. Thank you. 

 

Nevertheless what does it indicate then in case of nibs with that oval maker's mark (all Duofolds except 14K 1987 had it) + no gold hallmark at all? Without a legal hallmark for gold any maker's or importer's mark is just a useless engraving. 

 

Moreover sometimes you can see an oval PP and an eagle which doesn't make sense at all (in terms of the said above).

 

And most often here you can see an oval mark and no hallmark.

[Mercian]

29 minutes ago, aurore said:

Nevertheless what does it indicate then in case of nibs with that oval maker's mark (all Duofolds except 14K 1987 had it) + no gold hallmark at all? Without a legal hallmark for gold any maker's or importer's mark is just a useless engraving. 
 

 

To me, the lack of the hallmarks suggests that the nib was only intended for sale within England - or at least not in France.

 

Then there’s the change in French law about which items require hallmarks.
I think that the minimum weight of gold was increased in 1994 (I think that the minimum weight above which an item would require a hallmark to certify its gold content was changed from 1g of gold to 3g of gold - but that figure might not be correct).

i.e. that after the change to the law in 1994, nibs no longer contained enough gold to require a hallmark to certify their gold content.

 

29 minutes ago, aurore said:

 

Moreover sometimes you can see an oval PP and an eagle which doesn't make sense at all (in terms of the said above).

The information on that douane.gouv.fr webpage says that a nib stamped with an Eagle mark and a PP inside an oval would be for a nib that was made outside France, and imported into France by Parker.

 

By the way, sorry for my slow reply to your last two posts - my iPad has been doing weird things this afternoon 🤷‍♂️

It is an old one, and it seems as though it might now be becoming as ‘flaky’ as its owner 😮😉

[aurore]

8 minutes ago, Mercian said:

 

To me, the lack of the hallmarks suggests that the nib was only intended for sale within England - or at least not in France.

 

Then there’s the change in French law about which items require hallmarks.
I think that the minimum weight of gold was increased in 1994 (I think that the minimum weight above which an item would require a hallmark to certify its gold content was changed from 1g of gold to 3g of gold - but that figure might not be correct).

i.e. that after the change to the law in 1994, nibs no longer contained enough gold to require a hallmark to certify their gold content.

 

The information on that douane.gouv.fr webpage says that a nib stamped with an Eagle mark and a PP inside an oval would be for a nib that was made outside France, and imported into France by Parker.

 

By the way, sorry for my slow reply to your last two posts - my iPad has been doing weird things this afternoon 🤷‍♂️

It is an old one, and it seems as though it might now be becoming as ‘flaky’ as its owner 😮😉

 

Thank you very much for your fabulous input! 

 

Two tiny questions (the last one is speculative): 

1) Weren't imported gold items (to France) supposed to have an import hallmark (an owl) instead of the eagle? 

 

2) Given all said above, the nibs meant to be sold in England were made outside France, then imported to France (hence an oval importer's mark), then exported to England but since Centennial nibs are 0,99g (which they are) they neither had a French hallmark nor need an English one? 

But where were they made then? And why were they imported to France and only from there to England?

[Mercian]

56 minutes ago, aurore said:

 

Thank you very much for your fabulous input! 

 

Two tiny questions (the last one is speculative): 

1) Weren't imported gold items (to France) supposed to have an import hallmark (an owl) instead of the eagle? 

 

 

The only link I have found (so far) to explain this is:

https://www.antiquejewel.com/en/explanation-on-the-owl-by-adin-antique-vintage-and-estate-jewelry.htm

 

It says that the Owl was stamped to on items of jewellery that were assayed in their finished condition.

 

Whereas the Eagle head and Dog head marks were stamped on items that were assayed in an unfinished condition.

Which would suggest that the gold content of nibs was assayed (or, at least, that the hallmarks were stamped on to them) after they had been cut out from a flat sheet of gold, but before they had been bent in to the curved shape necessary to fit on to a pen’s feed.

 

 

56 minutes ago, aurore said:

2) Given all said above, the nibs meant to be sold in England were made outside France, then imported to France (hence an oval importer's mark), then exported to England but since Centennial nibs are 0,99g (which they are) they neither had a French hallmark nor need an English one? 

But where were they made then? And why were they imported to France and only from there to England?

I would imagine that they were made at Newhaven.

 

The Hallmark for items to be imported in to France could be stamped-on at any location in the world (once samples of the items sent by the importer had passed the assay process).
The ‘mark of responsibility’ means that the importer of the item into France would be identified, and that that company could therefore be prosecuted in France if the gold content was ever found to be less than 750/1000.

And, in the absence of rules in the UK concerning the shapes in which Sponsor’s marks must be stamped, it would make sense for Parker to stamp its ‘PP’ mark inside an oval on all of its nibs.

 

But the lack of any ‘Made in…’ stamp means that it isn’t possible to state definitively where they were made 😕

The only thing that we can say is that, if they have been stamped with an Eagle head and a ‘PP’ mark inside an oval, the nib wasn’t made in France.
Which leaves ‘only’ the whole of the Rest of the World as possible locations of manufacture  😁
 

At which point we would need to try to find somebody who worked at Parker’s factory in Newhaven in that era, and ask that person if they know whether or not gold nibs were being made there.

 

Can anyone remember the FPN username of ‘darryl k.’, the former Newhaven toolmaker who owns the website:

https://www.moreengineering.co.uk/Parker25

 

Or do we think we could try to contact him about this question through that website?

🤷‍♂️

[Matlock]

The most interesting point is that the hallmark and sponsor mark only seem to have been applied to a small number of Centennial nibs in 1987, nothing since.

As an aside I have just purchased a replacement nib for my Sonnet, the sponsor mark is STE  NFP with an image of an inverted pen in the space, this within the usual diamond frame. This is a genuine Parker nib purchased from a authorised Parker dealer.