Parker Duofold Centennial 14K 585 nibs origin

[aurore]

4 hours ago, Matlock said:

No, the pp divided by the Parker arrow, this is the mark for Parker Meru. On the opposite side is the eagle's head which is the French Hallmark for 18k gold.

Well, the divided pp was also a U.S. mark: https://parkerpens.net/codekey.html

Moreover it was usually used in Meru in a rather different way, like in a case of Sonnet and Premier in a rhombus. On the other hand neither my 1987 14K nib nor this later 18K show a French assay office hallmark. 

 

That said Parker later (when both Parker and Waterman owned) switched to P/W mark instead if PP, yet while Sonnets were still rhombus, Duofolds had a circle.

 

 

 

[Matlock]

3 hours ago, aurore said:

Well, the divided pp was also a U.S. mark: https://parkerpens.net/codekey.html

Moreover it was usually used in Meru in a rather different way, like in a case of Sonnet and Premier in a rhombus. On the other hand neither my 1987 14K nib nor this later 18K show a French assay office hallmark. 

 

That said Parker later (when both Parker and Waterman owned) switched to P/W mark instead if PP, yet while Sonnets were still rhombus, Duofolds had a circle.

 

 

 

It's all a bit of a mystery. I have 2 14k nibs neither of which have makers marks or hallmarks and only 2 of my 18k nibs are marked (both 1987), all my other nibs just show 18k 750.

[aurore]

14 minutes ago, Matlock said:

It's all a bit of a mystery. I have 2 14k nibs neither of which have makers marks or hallmarks and only 2 of my 18k nibs are marked (both 1987), all my other nibs just show 18k 750.

 

My experience is identical (though I overlooked the French hallmarks). Technically 14K could have been made in France, the absence of hallmarks is understandable since anything below 18K was not legally gold there. But it does not explain the absence of a maker's mark. That said, suppose those 18K 1987 nibs were made in France, which seems they were, why on Earth the maker's mark did not look the same as on all other pens (like P75 or later Sonnet) that we know for sure were made there at the same time? 

On the other hand there is no reasonable explanation for the French hallmark on 1987's 18K nibs except they were made there indeed. 

 

Above all, making these nibs means quite a lot of expensive equipment. Suppose most of the Centennial nibs until moving to Nantes had been made in Newhaven... what about that technical equipment, all the machines? Did they take it from France? Does not make sense. Did they buy the stuff in 1988? Quite possible... but why not buying it immediately? 

A rather intriguing piece of history of my beloved pen.

[Mercian]

3 hours ago, aurore said:

On the other hand there is no reasonable explanation for the French hallmark on 1987's 18K nibs except they were made there indeed

I have to disagree with this ⬆️ statement.

 

Hallmarks merely indicate that the item on which they appear has been assessed as conforming to the purity standards mandated for the precious metal of which they were made, in an assessment by the legal authority in the jurisdiction in which they are being sold.
British hallmarks do include a ‘geographical’ mark to indicate the ‘Assay Office’ that certified (samples of) the item to be compliant with the relevant standards, and also one for the company that has submitted (samples of) the item for ‘assay’ (which is called the ‘sponsor’s mark’, because it may refer to the importer of the item, rather than to its manufacturer).
Hallmarks don’t indicate where the item was manufactured.

 

The French hallmarks would be necessary for any item that was being imported into France and sold as (18k) ‘gold’ in the French market, no matter where it was made.

E.g. I have a ‘W.-Germany’ Pelikan M800 with an 18k nib on it (so, the nib must have been produced in 1990 or 1991). The nib has a Swiss (?) ‘PF’ customs stamp on it, and it also has the French ‘Eagle head’ stamp for 18k gold.
As far as I know, Pelikan has never made its nibs inside France.

 

I have also seen Sterling silver Parker 75s that were made in the USA that have had the British hallmarks for Sterling silver (including the ‘sponsor’s mark’ for Parker Pens) stamped on to them when they were imported for sale within the UK.

 

The presence of the French ‘Eagle’s head’ hallmark on the nibs doesn’t mean that they weren’t produced at Newhaven.
It only indicates that Parker had got the nibs certified as conforming to the French standards for 18k gold, so that it could sell them in the French market.

As for the hallmarks on your 1987 nibs being different to those on earlier Parker nibs, I know that the Management team of Parker’s UK factory at Newhaven actually bought out the entire ‘writing instrument division’ of the Parker company from the parent company in 1986, and so the Corporate HQ was moved from Janesville Wisconsin to Newhaven then.
Perhaps they decided to (or had to?) change/re-register their ‘maker’s mark’ to reflect the ‘new’ ownership status? 🤷‍♂️

N.b. that last part is only a total guess!

Slàinte,

M.

[Matlock]

10 hours ago, Mercian said:

I have to disagree with this ⬆️ statement.

 

Hallmarks merely indicate that the item on which they appear has been assessed as conforming to the purity standards mandated for the precious metal of which they were made, in an assessment by the legal authority in the jurisdiction in which they are being sold.
British hallmarks do include a ‘geographical’ mark to indicate the ‘Assay Office’ that certified (samples of) the item to be compliant with the relevant standards, and also one for the company that has submitted (samples of) the item for ‘assay’ (which is called the ‘sponsor’s mark’, because it may refer to the importer of the item, rather than to its manufacturer).
Hallmarks don’t indicate where the item was manufactured.

 

The French hallmarks would be necessary for any item that was being imported into France and sold as (18k) ‘gold’ in the French market, no matter where it was made.

E.g. I have a ‘W.-Germany’ Pelikan M800 with an 18k nib on it (so, the nib must have been produced in 1990 or 1991). The nib has a Swiss (?) ‘PF’ customs stamp on it, and it also has the French ‘Eagle head’ stamp for 18k gold.
As far as I know, Pelikan has never made its nibs inside France.

 

I have also seen Sterling silver Parker 75s that were made in the USA that have had the British hallmarks for Sterling silver (including the ‘sponsor’s mark’ for Parker Pens) stamped on to them when they were imported for sale within the UK.

 

The presence of the French ‘Eagle’s head’ hallmark on the nibs doesn’t mean that they weren’t produced at Newhaven.
It only indicates that Parker had got the nibs certified as conforming to the French standards for 18k gold, so that it could sell them in the French market.

As for the hallmarks on your 1987 nibs being different to those on earlier Parker nibs, I know that the Management team of Parker’s UK factory at Newhaven actually bought out the entire ‘writing instrument division’ of the Parker company from the parent company in 1986, and so the Corporate HQ was moved from Janesville Wisconsin to Newhaven then.
Perhaps they decided to (or had to?) change/re-register their ‘maker’s mark’ to reflect the ‘new’ ownership status? 🤷‍♂️

N.b. that last part is only a total guess!

Slàinte,

M.

As usual we have more questions than answers. Why are some nibs hallmarked at all, it is not a common practice.

Incidentally the sponsor mark for  Parker Pens. ltd, UK  was

[aurore]

40 minutes ago, Matlock said:

As usual we have more questions than answers. Why are some nibs hallmarked at all, it is not a common practice.

Incidentally the sponsor mark for  Parker Pens. ltd, UK  was

 

Indeed it was, but quite a long time before introducing Duofold Centennial.

[Matlock]

1 minute ago, aurore said:

 

Indeed it was, but quite a long time before introducing Duofold Centennial.

Not so, my 2004 Sterling Silver Parker Jotter has that sponsor mark, it was used up to the closure of Newhaven..

[aurore]

11 hours ago, Mercian said:

I have to disagree with this ⬆️ statement.

 

Hallmarks merely indicate that the item on which they appear has been assessed as conforming to the purity standards mandated for the precious metal of which they were made, in an assessment by the legal authority in the jurisdiction in which they are being sold.
British hallmarks do include a ‘geographical’ mark to indicate the ‘Assay Office’ that certified (samples of) the item to be compliant with the relevant standards, and also one for the company that has submitted (samples of) the item for ‘assay’ (which is called the ‘sponsor’s mark’, because it may refer to the importer of the item, rather than to its manufacturer).
Hallmarks don’t indicate where the item was manufactured.

 

The French hallmarks would be necessary for any item that was being imported into France and sold as (18k) ‘gold’ in the French market, no matter where it was made.

E.g. I have a ‘W.-Germany’ Pelikan M800 with an 18k nib on it (so, the nib must have been produced in 1990 or 1991). The nib has a Swiss (?) ‘PF’ customs stamp on it, and it also has the French ‘Eagle head’ stamp for 18k gold.
As far as I know, Pelikan has never made its nibs inside France.

 

I have also seen Sterling silver Parker 75s that were made in the USA that have had the British hallmarks for Sterling silver (including the ‘sponsor’s mark’ for Parker Pens) stamped on to them when they were imported for sale within the UK.

 

The presence of the French ‘Eagle’s head’ hallmark on the nibs doesn’t mean that they weren’t produced at Newhaven.
It only indicates that Parker had got the nibs certified as conforming to the French standards for 18k gold, so that it could sell them in the French market.

As for the hallmarks on your 1987 nibs being different to those on earlier Parker nibs, I know that the Management team of Parker’s UK factory at Newhaven actually bought out the entire ‘writing instrument division’ of the Parker company from the parent company in 1986, and so the Corporate HQ was moved from Janesville Wisconsin to Newhaven then.
Perhaps they decided to (or had to?) change/re-register their ‘maker’s mark’ to reflect the ‘new’ ownership status? 🤷‍♂️

N.b. that last part is only a total guess!

Slàinte,

M.

 

What a great input! 
A couple of comments. Hallmarks within the EC have been universally recognized for a very long time. Not sure if in 1987 but I believe so. Hence if the nibs had been imported from the U.S. it would have make sence but somewhat less if they were made in the U.K.
That said since the above mentioned 1987 pens were bought in London and my pens also come partly from the U.K., partly from Germany, French hallmarks do not make much sense other than they were manufactured in France imho.
Yes I am aware of Parker history, but France has kept the maker's mark for the last 50 years (and has used it for P75, Sonnet, Premier etc.) is my main argument in terms of the eventuality Duofold nibs had not been made in France at all (before abolishing Newhaven plant).

[Matlock]

13 minutes ago, Matlock said:

Not so, my 2004 Sterling Silver Parker Jotter has that sponsor mark, it was used up to the closure of Newhaven..

 

[aurore]

10 minutes ago, Matlock said:

Not so, my 2004 Sterling Silver Parker Jotter has that sponsor mark, it was used up to the closure of Newhaven..

 

A very interesting fact. In that case I am completely confused and have no explanation at all.

[Matlock]

Just now, aurore said:

 

A very interesting fact. In that case I am completely confused and have no explanation at all.

I am always confused, I have posted a, rather poor, photo of my Jotter.

As to your comment about nibs being made in U.S. one of my pens with the French hallmark is a 1988 Collector Edition intended for the U.S. market.

The plot thickens.

[Mercian]

2 hours ago, aurore said:

A couple of comments. Hallmarks within the EC have been universally recognized for a very long time. Not sure if in 1987 but I believe so.

The ‘Single Market’ of the EEC/EU only came fully into legal effect/existence at the end of 1992.

I remember the event very clearly, because I happened to go on holiday to the Canary Islands in the first week of January 1993.
I was looking forward to being able to bring loads of cheap cigarettes back to England, as the old ‘Duty free’ limits would no longer apply.

While on the outward-bound flight, the pilot made an announcement about this very topic to all the passengers.
He said that while we may be thinking of taking advantage of the new ‘Single Market’ to bring back lots of alcohol/tobacco, the Canary Islands were not part of it (they are a ‘tax haven’, like the UK Channel Islands are), and so the old ‘Duty free’ limits would still apply to anything that we bought in the Canary Islands.
This information was met with an audible groan from many disappointed holidaymakers on the flight 😁

 

What made things worse was that, when my return flight landed at Gatwick in the wee small hours of the morning, there were no HMRC staff on duty checking anyone’s bags. We were all very surprised by this, and found ourselves regretting the ‘missed opportunity’ that it represented.

 

[Matlock]

"The Canary Islands were not part of it (they are a ‘tax haven’, like the UK Channel Islands are), and so the old ‘Duty free’ limits would still apply to anything that we bought in the Canary Islands."

 

Oh so true. Not too many people understood that the Channel Islands, Gibraltar and the Isle of Man were never part of the EU as they were British Oversea Territories.

[Carguy]

On a related topic, I cannot remember which Duofold is bigger. Is the International size smaller than the Centennial or vice versa?

 

Depending on the response, I may have the cap top decal source OP is seeking.

[encremental]

The Centennial is the larger pen.

 

John

[aurore]

On 6/23/2024 at 1:30 PM, Matlock said:

 This is the French Hallmark for 18K gold

 

Sorry for the silly question, but do your nibs definitely have this eagle, not some other creature like one of these instead?

[Matlock]

On 6/27/2024 at 12:32 PM, aurore said:

 

Sorry for the silly question, but do your nibs definitely have this eagle, not some other creature like one of these instead?

Yes the Eagle (without the border) which is for 18k small items.

[aurore]

7 minutes ago, Matlock said:

Yes the Eagle (without the border) which is for 18k small items.

 

Thank you. Then it had to be made there indeed, not imported.

[Mercian]

5 hours ago, aurore said:

 

Thank you. Then it had to be made there indeed, not imported.

My Pelikan M800’s nib has the same, Eagle-head, stamp on it, & the Swiss(?) ‘PF’ stamp too.

An explanation of the meaning of the Eagle-head (& ‘PF’) mark is given at:

https://www.pelikan-collectibles.com/en/Pelikan/Nibs/Nib-units-since-1929/index.html#heading_toc_j_14

 

Pelikan’s nibs are (& were) made in Germany, not in France.

 

Edit to add:

A far better source of information about the stamps on nibs is:

https://www.douane.gouv.fr/fiche/regles-de-marque-pour-la-garantie-des-metaux-precieux

 

In French (obviously), it states that importers can affix the Eagle-head mark (after samples of the item have been assayed), as long as they also include a ‘mark of responsibility’ - equivalent to the UK ‘sponsor’s mark’ - which, for importers, must be surrounded by an oval.

 

So, this suggests that the ‘PF’ mark on my Pelikan nib is a ‘responsibility mark’ for ‘Pelikan Fabrik’, and the fact that it is contained inside an oval shows that the nib has been imported to France.

The same page says that a French maker’s mark would be contained inside a diamond (‘losange’ en français).

 

So, if anyone has a nib in which the ‘PP’ (separated by an upward-pointing arrow) mark (or ‘PW’ mark) is contained within a diamond, that nib was made in France.

 

Whereas, if the ‘PP’ or ‘PW’ mark on their nib is inside an oval, that nib was imported to France.

 

The French hallmarks are clearly more-subtle, and contain more information, than do the British ones!
 

[Mercian]

Further evidence for this explanation - that the shape in which a hallmark is contained indicates whether an item has been ‘Made in France’, or ‘Imported to France’ can be seen in the following photos:

 

Firstly, the 18k nib on my ‘W.-Germany’ Pelikan M800:

 

Notice that the ‘PF’ mark (for ‘Pelikan Fabrik’?) is stamped inside an oval, so it is the ‘responsibility mark’ of an importer of items to France.

 

Secondly, here is the 14k nib on my Parker 75, which was made in 1984 Q1, at Méru:

 

Notice that on this nib the ‘PP’ (separated by an upward-pointing arrow’) for ‘Parker Pens’ is stamped inside a straight-sided losange, so is the ‘responsibility mark’ for a manufacturer that is located in France.

 

Slàinte,
M.