Need Handwriting suggestions. Thanks everyone.

[kealani]

With increasing arthritis in my hands and fingers, it's getting harder to sustain Palmer Business Script for too long, and it is getting less clear no matter how I try over the past years. It helped to go through the Sulls, American Cursive course several years ago, but that kind of effort no longer works. So, I need to maybe switch to some sort of printing style so that it is easier for me to write and easy for others to read.

An electric typewriter is much easier for letters but I do like using fountain pens and writing as well.

Any suggestions would be helpful.

Thanks much.

 

These sites have handwriting samples that are useful but it is like learning all over again. Difficult as I have hand issues. I'm not sure if it would be logical to integrate any of that into what I have?

click to access the sites.

janine scribbles

 

handwriting success getty dubai

 

consistent cursive

 

[Mercian]

I was going to suggest that you look at the Getty-Dubay site, and maybe buy a copy of their book Write Now, but two things have occurred to me:

 

1- if you don’t fancy the thought of having to fight through the whole process of learning a ‘new’ hand, then no suggestion for any new script for you to learn is going to be much use;

 

2- at-least-as-pertinently, if you decide that you wish to try to learn ‘Script x’, but you then find that it causes you too much pain, then ‘Script x’ is not appropriate for you.

 

Of the ‘new’ styles of your handwriting of which you have posted samples, my own reading-preference is for the third one; the ‘mix’ of the first, slanted one with the ‘blocky’ second one.
But the only thing that really matters is what you find that you can write comfortably!

 

For what its worth, I remember having read (not long after I first joined here) threads on FPN in which people who were suffering with arthritis asked for recommendations for pens that were more-comfortable to use, or for grip-adaptors that they could attach to their existing pens to make them more-comfortable to write with.

 

If you open the following link…

 

https://cse.google.com/cse?cx=016372583718073050395:1rsitsemrpo

 

…you will find a custom-search window, that gets Google to search just within FPN.
If you put in a search term like “pens for arthritis”, or “pens to help with arthritis issues”, you ought to be able to find the recommendations that have been offered on here in the past.

 

I wish you the best of luck with it 

 

Slàinte,
M.

[kealani]

18 minutes ago, Mercian said:

I was going to suggest that you look at the Getty-Dubay site, and maybe buy a copy of their book Write Now, but two things have occurred to me:

 

1- if you don’t fancy the thought of having to fight through the whole process of learning a ‘new’ hand, then no suggestion for any new script for you to learn is going to be much use;

 

2- at-least-as-pertinently, if you decide that you wish to try to learn ‘Script x’, but you then find that it causes you too much pain, then ‘Script x’ is not appropriate for you.

 

Of the ‘new’ styles of your handwriting of which you have posted samples, my own reading-preference is for the third one; the ‘mix’ of the first, slanted one with the ‘blocky’ second one.
But the only thing that really matters is what you find that you can write comfortably!

 

For what its worth, I remember having read (not long after I first joined here) threads on FPN in which people who were suffering with arthritis asked for recommendations for pens that were more-comfortable to use, or for grip-adaptors that they could attach to their existing pens to make them more-comfortable to write with.

 

If you open the following link…

 

https://cse.google.com/cse?cx=016372583718073050395:1rsitsemrpo

 

…you will find a custom-search window, that gets Google to search just within FPN.
If you put in a search term like “pens for arthritis”, or “pens to help with arthritis issues”, you ought to be able to find the recommendations that have been offered on here in the past.

 

I wish you the best of luck with it 

 

Slàinte,
M.

Thanks. This is logical and makes sense. I notice that I can write better and clearly with certain ballpoint pens than fountain pens. And, there's a compact size of writing that works for me as well. Better than the 3ed way you mention at the bottom of the photo sample. If I try to write bigger, it gets sloppy.

I don't know why my writing is a little different between fountain pens and ballpoint pens, certain ones.

My Palmer Scrpt used to be more rounded and easier to read long ago. But, over time, it has become jagged and sloppy. And, I can't write that way for very long as well.

 

Yes. I've tried the various grip things on pens and pencils but they don't work. It's just my fingers and hands, joints, and all that. 

 

Maybe it would be a good idea to practice my "print style" a bit and get it neater, find a rhythm for it and what pens work. I've never done that before. Usually my printing is for notes and sticky notes on the frig to wife, and all that. Not for letters.

 

Thanks for the help.

[kealani]

3 hours ago, Mercian said:

I was going to suggest that you look at the Getty-Dubay site, and maybe buy a copy of their book Write Now, but two things have occurred to me:

 

1- if you don’t fancy the thought of having to fight through the whole process of learning a ‘new’ hand, then no suggestion for any new script for you to learn is going to be much use;

 

2- at-least-as-pertinently, if you decide that you wish to try to learn ‘Script x’, but you then find that it causes you too much pain, then ‘Script x’ is not appropriate for you.

 

Of the ‘new’ styles of your handwriting of which you have posted samples, my own reading-preference is for the third one; the ‘mix’ of the first, slanted one with the ‘blocky’ second one.
But the only thing that really matters is what you find that you can write comfortably!

 

For what its worth, I remember having read (not long after I first joined here) threads on FPN in which people who were suffering with arthritis asked for recommendations for pens that were more-comfortable to use, or for grip-adaptors that they could attach to their existing pens to make them more-comfortable to write with.

 

If you open the following link…

 

https://cse.google.com/cse?cx=016372583718073050395:1rsitsemrpo

 

…you will find a custom-search window, that gets Google to search just within FPN.
If you put in a search term like “pens for arthritis”, or “pens to help with arthritis issues”, you ought to be able to find the recommendations that have been offered on here in the past.

 

I wish you the best of luck with it 

 

Slàinte,
M.

Okay. I ordered "Write Now" from the Getty Dubai site. I think that might be helpful and certainly is worth $20 to try.

Getty Dubai Website

Thanks for the tip.

k

[AmericanMonk]

@kealani I think that your Palmer is quite beautiful and all of your writing samples are very legible.

 

But I realize that that isn't entirely the point. I, too, have tried different methods for writing, primarily because I'm a lefty who grew up utilizing an overhand hook style and I wanted to try Spencerian writing. I tried to practice lefty underhand but the results have been so disheartening that I also practiced writing with my right hand and turning the page 90 degrees and drawing letters vertically. No matter what method I try, it feels a lot like I'm back in elementary school.

 

I've come to the conclusion that I need to find a way to make the practice feel less like practice—anything that makes it fun. What are your thoughts on stub nibs? They give instant character to lettering and if they are novel to you it might make practicing new styles more fun.

[kealani]

Wow! An outstanding idea! And a reason to shop for new pens!

It will be fun trying. A new world.

Huge thanks for your help.

k

[Mercian]

17 minutes ago, AmericanMonk said:

I've come to the conclusion that I need to find a way to make the practice feel less like practice—anything that makes it fun.

 

Well, if you were English I would suggest that you practice your cursive by writing out risqué/bawdy limericks 😉

Of course, given your username, that suggestion seems highly inappropriate 😳

 

Maybe you could practice by writing-out your favourite poems, or song lyrics, whether they are humorous, moving, religious, or just lines from books/films/TV shows/wherever that suit your own tastes?

 

 

17 minutes ago, AmericanMonk said:

 

What are your thoughts on stub nibs? They give instant character to lettering and if they are novel to you it might make practicing new styles more fun.

Personally, I advise anyone to start out learning/practicing a new hand/script by using a pencil.

If one is using a ‘copybook’, I advocate attaching a sheet of tracing paper to each page and then writing on that, rather than ‘damaging’ the copybook. This has the advantage of allowing repeated use of the copybook, and preserves its potential future re-sale value.

 

Once one has mastered the script with a pencil, I would next move-on to a monoline pen nib (whether that be a fountain pen or anything else).

Only once one has mastered the script in question with a monoline ink pen would I then move on to using edged nibs.

 

But I certainly agree that they sure do prettify one’s writing 😊

 

[Mercian]

54 minutes ago, AmericanMonk said:

I, too, have tried different methods for writing, primarily because I'm a lefty who grew up utilizing an overhand hook style and I wanted to try Spencerian writing. I tried to practice lefty underhand but the results have been so disheartening that I also practiced writing with my right hand and turning the page 90 degrees and drawing letters vertically. No matter what method I try, it feels a lot like I'm back in elementary school.

May I ask you a ‘technical’ question about this problem?
The answer may well be glaringly obvious, but it’s not an issue that I have ever had to deal with, so I have no personal experience to guide me, and thus need to ask the following, possibly damn-fool-stupid, question.

 

I write with my right hand.
Moving the pen from left to right to write in English (or e.g. French) means that I am moving the pen (& my right hand/arm) away from the centre of my body, outwards to the right.
Pivoting my arm at the elbow to do that causes the pen to move further away from an imaginary line connecting my shoulders, or from the near-edge of the table.
So, when I am writing I rotate the page on to which I am going to write, by about 45 degrees in an anti-clockwise direction.
Doing that means that the underside of my right hand is far less likely to smudge the ink in the words that I have just written, than if I had tried to write with the paper orthogonally ‘vertical’ with respect to the imaginary line between my shoulders (or with respect to the near-edge of the table).

 

It seems to me that trying to write English (or French etc) with one’s left hand would, as it pivots at one’s elbow, cause the pen/one’s left hand/arm to move rightwards and inwards; towards the centre of one’s body, and towards the near-edge of the table.

As such, it would seem to me to be a good idea to rotate the paper onto which one is going to write by about 45 degrees clockwise, in order to help the underside of one’s left hand to avoid smudging the ink in the words that one had already written.

 

Have you tried doing that when attempting your ‘lefty-underwriting’?
And if so, did doing it not in fact help you that much?

My apologies to you if this is a Stupid Question, and my thanks to you in advance for your answer.

 

Slàinte,
M.

[kealani]

I still have the "Sulls" American Cursive, course book and folder from years ago when I was "cleaning up" my ancient Palmer Script. It took a year of daily practice and it helped a lot. I'm not sure if doing that again is what would work best for me as far as easy to write and read at this point.

[knarflj]

Have you tried using the large muscles of the arm more and the small muscles of the hand and fingers less?  Iow, the hand does nothing but hold the pen loosely, while the arm shapes the letters.  This is particularly well-suited for the Palmer script you already know (and so perhaps you do this already, and it's a useless suggestion), but can be used for other scripts as well. 

[txomsy]

I would suggest learning italic. There are plenty of variations. Using a stub nib can lend it character easily. It is kind of a compromise between blocking and Palmer, and it shouldn't be difficult to find a variant that is appealing and easy for you.

 

But this being so subjective, the most I can say is 'go, give it a try' where 'it' is anything you fancy until you find something comfortable. Trying is cheap, just take a sheet of paper and try a few sentences in different styles.

 

Other than that, my sympathies go with you, I know this can be a stressful condition.

[kealani]

2 hours ago, knarflj said:

Have you tried using the large muscles of the arm more and the small muscles of the hand and fingers less?  Iow, the hand does nothing but hold the pen loosely, while the arm shapes the letters.  This is particularly well-suited for the Palmer script you already know (and so perhaps you do this already, and it's a useless suggestion), but can be used for other scripts as well. 

Thanks for the tip. Tried it long ago. My entire arm and hand and fingers do not work well. So, oh well.

[kealani]

1 hour ago, txomsy said:

I would suggest learning italic. There are plenty of variations. Using a stub nib can lend it character easily. It is kind of a compromise between blocking and Palmer, and it shouldn't be difficult to find a variant that is appealing and easy for you.

 

But this being so subjective, the most I can say is 'go, give it a try' where 'it' is anything you fancy until you find something comfortable. Trying is cheap, just take a sheet of paper and try a few sentences in different styles.

 

Other than that, my sympathies go with you, I know this can be a stressful condition.

I don't know anything about "italic writing". I will look it up and try it. Is there a course book/folder for it like the "Sulls" American Cursive?

Do you have to use a stub nib?

I write small so wouldn't that tend to blurr everything up, all the letters, each letter?

Thanks for you kind help.

k

[Mercian]

1 hour ago, kealani said:

I don't know anything about "italic writing".

The Getty-Dubay writing system in the book you have ordered is a version of ‘Italic’ script.

 

It is based on the hand that was developed by a Papal scribe for use in the Vatican Chancellery during the Italian Renaissance, as a script that would be quick and easy for officials to write, and still be easily-legible. Both of which factors are important when creating official records by hand.

 

Various versions of Italic script have been developed, by various people.

 

The main distinguishing feature of Italic scripts (apart from a slight slant) is that they don’t feature the loops and flourishes that are components of many ‘Cursive’ scripts.

 

There are other Italic scripts available.
Herebelow are links to two threads about them that I have participated in, and which contain links to information about/downloadable font sets of the scripts in question.

First, a thread that discusses the handwriting models created by the Ministry of Education of the government of France:

 

 

The French Ministry of Education allows one to download the fonts for both of its handwriting models in versions that are ‘loopy cursive’, and in versions that are loop-free italic.
The fonts include versions that print out background lines, so one can create one’s own practice sheets on one’s computer, and then print those out.

There’s a link to PDF that shows all the styles of each model.
Personally, I like the ‘italique’ version of ‘Écriture B’.
 

Secondly, a thread about the cursive italic style that was developed for use in the schools in Sweden in the 1970s:

 

There are also other threads about Italic scripts on this board of FPN, some of which may be more-informative than those two, or offer other writing models that you may prefer.
If I were you I would look to see if you can hunt any down with the ‘Search’ function at the top of this page 

 

Slàinte,
M.

[AmericanMonk]

21 hours ago, Mercian said:

Well, if you were English I would suggest that you practice your cursive by writing out risqué/bawdy limericks 😉

Of course, given your username, that suggestion seems highly inappropriate 😳

😂 Haha! No worries there. My username is more of a statement on American culture (and my place within it) than anything else. I am not a literal man of the cloth. I do, however, enjoy practicing my handwriting with words of wisdom from the Bible, as well as proverbs from many worldwide mystic, spiritual, and religious sources.

 

And then other times I write down quips from cartoons or whatever else I am watching. I'm not too picky.

 

21 hours ago, Mercian said:

Have you tried doing [a 45 degree clockwise rotation] when attempting your ‘lefty-underwriting’?
And if so, did doing it not in fact help you that much?

My apologies to you if this is a Stupid Question, and my thanks to you in advance for your answer.

 

That's not a stupid question at all. I neglected pertinent details because I didn't anticipate that anybody would be replying with advice for me. My details were only meant to indicate that there have been times when my own handwriting felt alien to me and that it was frustrating when I couldn't make it better as quickly as I would have liked. I thought that maybe kealani could relate. I tried to touch upon, without saying, that one almost mourns a portion of their own identity when one's handwriting doesn't feel right or isn't as good as it used to be.

 

But yes, when I practice underhand I turn the page 45 degrees clockwise. The 90-degree turn was the result of some advice I saw on a video, where a lefty calligraphy student was told to practice blackletter calligraphy at a 90-degree angle prior to trying Spencerian or Copperplate styles. But even with the 90-degree turn, he uses a side/underhand grip. Eventually I'll move on to some other advice, but the common denominator is to stop using the overhook, which is—by far—the most comfortable and practical option for me in every day writing.

 

I'll eventually apply a more disciplined approach to practice, but right now I am too focused on my career, responsibilities, ever-growing list of books to read, etc. to dedicate the 30 minutes/day that I'd like to apply to improving any of my horizon-expanding endeavors. Calligraphy has been pushed back to a "when I retire" priority. At that point I'll look more into the book, tracing paper, and pencil approach that you've kindly suggested. 😊

[AmericanMonk]

22 hours ago, kealani said:

Wow! An outstanding idea! And a reason to shop for new pens!

It will be fun trying. A new world.

Huge thanks for your help.

I'm happy to share. 😊

If it is not fruitful, I hope it is at least fun!

 

You mentioned that your writing is on the smaller side. I, too, appreciate having the option to write tiny. With that in mind, I'll suggest you take a look at Pilot's CM nib, which is found on some Plumix, Metropolitan, and Prera pens. They are dry nibs.

 

If you want a smoother experience, the 1.1mm stub on the Monteverde MVP (a #5 Jowo nib, I believe) loses the dry feel while still providing a thinner-than-average 1.1 line.

 

The old school Sheaffer No Nonsense Fine Italic nibs create relatively thin and crisp lines, but their edges are unforgiving when compared to the stubs above. They're no longer manufactured so you have to buy on the used market, probably from India. Sheaffer's current entry-level calligraphy sets might be just as good but I don't know.

 

Lastly, Birmingham Pens offers Nemosine #6 0.6mm and 0.8mm stubs, but are currently out of stock. I have yet to try them but FPN seems to think highly of them and I am looking forward to giving them a try.

 

There are other good (and more accessible) options, but the above are the thinnest that I know about.

[Mercian]

10 hours ago, AmericanMonk said:

You mentioned that your writing is on the smaller side. I, too, appreciate having the option to write tiny. With that in mind, I'll suggest you take a look at Pilot's CM nib, which is found on some Plumix, Metropolitan, and Prera pens. They are dry nibs.

The CM nib can still (at time of posting) be bought on the Pilot MR/Metropolitan pen, in various colours, from Jet Pens (in the USA):

 

https://www.jetpens.com/Pilot-Metropolitan-Fountain-Pen-Black-Plain-Medium-Italic-Nib/pd/19271

 

Also, if one can find them, the Plumix was sold with its italic/calligraphy nibs in two even narrower grinds:

 

 

I bought my ‘M’ Plumix (whose nib’s width is the same as the ‘CM’ nib on my Pilot Metropolitan) from eBay, and also a Plumix with one of the ‘F’ nibs.

 

I presume that Pilot’s slightly smaller ‘Pluminix’ calligraphy pens were sold with nibs of the same widths as those on the Plumix.

[kealani]

1 hour ago, Mercian said:

The CM nib can still (at time of posting) be bought on the Pilot MR/Metropolitan pen, in various colours, from Jet Pens (in the USA):

 

https://www.jetpens.com/Pilot-Metropolitan-Fountain-Pen-Black-Plain-Medium-Italic-Nib/pd/19271

 

Also, if one can find them, the Plumix was sold with its italic/calligraphy nibs in two even narrower grinds:

 

 

I bought my ‘M’ Plumix (whose nib’s width is the same as the ‘CM’ nib on my Pilot Metropolitan) from eBay, and also a Plumix with one of the ‘F’ nibs.

 

I presume that Pilot’s slightly smaller ‘Pluminix’ calligraphy pens were sold with nibs of the same widths as those on the Plumix.

Thanks. The Pilot Metro body is too thin to write comfortably for me. I ordered the PILOT Prera Iro-Ai Calligraphy-Nib from Amazon because the body looked thicker, like a TWSBI Diamond 580. Not sure if it really is.

I've found that the body size and "feel" of the TWSBI Diamond 580 ALR, Pelikan M400, etc, to be a good fit, vintage Parker Vacumatics.

 

Question:

Does "italic" have to be written with a stub nib to be "italic", or can italic be written with a regular pointed fountain pen nib in EF, F, etc?

 

thanks again.

k

[Mercian]

37 minutes ago, kealani said:

Question:

Does "italic" have to be written with a stub nib to be "italic", or can italic be written with a regular pointed fountain pen nib in EF, F, etc?

One can certainly write an ‘italic’ script with a ‘normal’ monoline (i.e.round-tipped) nib 

The edged-nibs for ‘calligraphy’ that are, confusingly, also referred to as ‘italic’, are not necessary for writing in an ‘italic’ script.

When your copy of Write Now gets to you, you will find that its instructive pages are split into three sections:

1. writing their ‘basic italic’ (un-joined, or ‘print’) script with a round nib;
2. writing their ‘cursive italic’ (the same script, but with the letterforms now joined) with a round nib and;
3. writing ‘edged-pen italic’ (their ‘basic italic’, their ‘cursive italic’, and ‘Chancery cursive’) using edged nibs.

 

It’s a really helpful book 😊

[kealani]

2 hours ago, Mercian said:

One can certainly write an ‘italic’ script with a ‘normal’ monoline (i.e.round-tipped) nib 

The edged-nibs for ‘calligraphy’ that are, confusingly, also referred to as ‘italic’, are not necessary for writing in an ‘italic’ script.

When your copy of Write Now gets to you, you will find that its instructive pages are split into three sections:

1. writing their ‘basic italic’ (un-joined, or ‘print’) script with a round nib;
2. writing their ‘cursive italic’ (the same script, but with the letterforms now joined) with a round nib and;
3. writing ‘edged-pen italic’ (their ‘basic italic’, their ‘cursive italic’, and ‘Chancery cursive’) using edged nibs.

 

It’s a really helpful book 😊

lightbulb moment....

 

huge thanks

k