Pens and nibs for italic to write this small?

[PhiloPlume]

49 minutes ago, Penguincollector said:

My local store, Main Street Stamps and Stationery, has 3  packs of Plumixes left. They come 3 in a pack, italic medium. $22.95. Google the store name and call if interested, they mail order. 

Thank you.

 

I just received the Pilot Prera.  It has the same calligraphy/italic medium (CM) nib as the Pilot Metropolitan does, but costs a little more.

 

Haven't tried it yet but I do like the Metropolitan's quite a bit.

 

[PhiloPlume]

On 4/15/2024 at 2:06 PM, Misfit said:

Franklin-Christoph might be the way to go. I took a screenshot of their nib widths. 
 

Yes they are!  Thanks to David for recommending their music and Medium Cursive nibs and pens to me.  I have a bunch from them now. Just wish their stub was smaller,  I am using that for writing names on a certificate project I have.  And the broad cursive italic too.

 

As far as I know, no one else makes a cursive-italic nib.  They are fantastic.  I recently discovered their home ground SIG nib and it is almost like their cursive-italics but a lot smoother.  Might be my favorite all around nib ever!

 

And you know what about Franklin-Christoph?  They are the only company that I know of that gets the order out the same day, and also ships them FedEx two-day included!  Living in Montana away from the east coast, it really makes a difference.

 

No other pen company that I have come across is that professional in getting the order out the same day.  Not JetPens, Fahrney's, GoldSpot, Goulet, Pen Boutique and others that I have dealt with.  And they answer emails almost right away.

 

Thanks!

[PhiloPlume]

By the way, I just received the latest version of "Written Letters" by Jacqueline Svaren and it is the most beautiful and perfect italic calligraphy that I have ever seen in any other books that I have, except for the ugly and obnoxious (IMHO :_)) flourishes at the beginning and end of some letters.  Totally ruins everything.

 

She suggests a Speedball with a C-2 nib which is a dip pen.  I will put up with a dip pen when messing around with Copperplate (although I do have nibs with an ink reservoir but haven't tried them yet.  Here is the problem with all these books:  The writing and examples are way too small to have been written with any "italic" nib known to man kind. 🙂  As in every other book and web page I have viewed, the writing must have been written with medium (which are actually quite large to me) nibs or larger and shrunk down for printing.

 

I believe I am indeed correct as on page 63 of this Written Letters book, in big, bold italic letters in the center of the page it says "If your writing is going to be reduced photographically or reduced by multilith you will want to consider some possible variations of form."
 

Case closed!! 🙂 I have been trying to resolve an issue that cannot be resolved lol!

 

I sure wish I could write as perfectly as in the first few pages ("Dear Fellow Calligraphy Student") and in the rest of this book for the most part!  Absolutely beautiful!  Almost makes me want to cry!

 

[Mercian]

I forgot to post this earlier.

I recently bought a Pelikan 400 that was made in 1954.

The nibs on those pens have a cursive-italic grind, and they are a bit flexible too.

 

I bought one with a nib that is marked ‘F’. It has a cursive-italic grind, it is a little bit flexy, and it is very similar in width to the calligraphy nib on my Pilot Plumix that is marked ‘F’.

The Pelikan 400 (& slightly-later 400N and 400NN) were available with these nibs in grades EF, F, M, and B.
Plus some obliques.

So, if you would like to get a narrow cursive-italic nib with a bit if flex to it, look for a 1950s Pelikan 400, 400N, or 400NN.

A Pelikan 400 with a nib marked ‘EF’ would presumably produce a narrower line than my 400’s ‘F’ nib.

 

N.b. Pelikan nibs marked with a ‘D’ (for ‘Durch’) are engineered for writing through several layers of carbon paper, in order to make duplicate copies. @Bo Bo Olson has described those nibs as ‘the nail’s nail’, and as stiff enough to use for opening-up a Sherman tank 😉

[PhiloPlume]

3 hours ago, Mercian said:

So, if you would like to get a narrow cursive-italic nib with a bit if flex to it, look for a 1950s Pelikan 400, 400N, or 400NN.

A Pelikan 400 with a nib marked ‘EF’ would presumably produce a narrower line than my 400’s ‘F’ nib.

 A little flex is fine with me!  But I doubt I could afford any of these old pens.  All these penmanship books I have and study, and practice with and watch on the web are all very old books and videos.  Seems like a ton has changed in the fountain pen world since then!

 

Thank you!

[PhiloPlume]

4 hours ago, PhiloPlume said:

I just received the Pilot Prera

It does write smallish italic, but it is not very smooth and is a little scratchy.  I should get off my but2 and write something with it and others and then scan and post it one of these days.

[AmandaW]

4 minutes ago, PhiloPlume said:

It does write smallish italic, but it is not very smooth and is a little scratchy.  I should get off my but2 and write something with it and others and then scan and post it one of these days.

A more lubricated ink might fix that. Or a little smoothing. I have six Pilot calligraphy nibs of assorted widths and one of them did need adjustment.  It could be dryness that's making it seem scratchy or a slight misalignment.

[A Smug Dill]

36 minutes ago, PhiloPlume said:

It does write smallish italic, but it is not very smooth and is a little scratchy.

 

I haven't found the Pilot ‘calligraphy’ nibs — whether they are Plumix nibs in various widths, or the CM nib on a Pilot MR or Prera which AmandaW has studied closely and reported as having rounder corners than the Plumix M nib — to be scratchy.

 

 

But a nib certainly does not have to be (by the user's reckoning subjectively) smooth to be rightly classified as “italic”, and it does not have to be particularly enjoyable to use, to produce the sort of script demonstrated in calligraphy instruction books. “Cursive” and pleasant are not implied, and I don't see your question (or topic of discussion) as ultimately a quest for a nice pen for the individual consumer (and certainly without limiting the scope of being in the US) to order and enjoy using while practising writing in accordance with the guidance of those books, but a question of whether the writing output is reproducible using fountain pens with factory-fitted broad-edged nibs. It isn't a question of what is “best” and/or easiest to acquire, for the user who just wants to get on with it (and with as little cost and hassle as possible).

[PhiloPlume]

46 minutes ago, AmandaW said:

A more lubricated ink might fix tha

What is that?

[AmandaW]

1 hour ago, PhiloPlume said:

What is that?

A whole 'nother part of the warren... A search will bring discussion and recommendations. Basically a more lubricated ink will make a nib feel smoother than a dry or watery one. It can go too far and make the line wider than one would like which is especially annoying if you're after a nice fine italic.

 

I like Sailor Doyou.

[Mercian]

8 hours ago, PhiloPlume said:

What is that?

Some inks feel very ‘dry’ under the nib. Many iron-gall inks are notorious for this, and so they are only really pleasant to use in ‘wet’-writing pens. E.g. I found that R&K ‘Scabiosa’ felt so un-lubricated and so ‘dry’ under the nib of my aerometric Parker “51” that I actually dumped the whole fill of ink out of the pen. Even though I’m a tightwad 😁 Their ‘Salix’ is absolutely fine in that pen, but not their ‘Scabiosa’.

 

Other inks flow much more readily. In a ‘wet’ pen, a ‘wet’-writing ink can often spread on/in the paper, and ‘feather’, or show-through or bleed-through. But such inks are ‘just what the doctor ordered’ for ‘dry’-writing pens.

 

Personally, I have found that Waterman inks and Parker’s Quink range lubricate most pens’ nibs really nicely, but there are many other inks that also do that.

I have also encountered a strange, but very pleasant, phenomenon when writing with Sailor ‘Kiwa Guro’ carbon black ink.
It is a permanent black ink that does not ‘feather’ or spread on most papers. It doesn’t feel ‘wet’, but it can make some of my ‘scratchy’ nibs feel smoother.
Speaking subjectively, I agree with one person whose review of it I read on here - it can feel like writing with liquid silk 🙂

[Karmachanic]

Mentioned elswhere; Pilot SU stub.

[PhiloPlume]

13 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

for a nice pen for the individual consumer (and certainly without limiting the scope of being in the US) to order and enjoy using while practising writing in accordance with the guidance of those books, but a question of whether the writing output is reproducible using fountain pens with factory-fitted broad-edged nibs. It isn't a question of what is “best” and/or easiest to acquire, for the user who just wants to get on with it (and with as little cost and hassle as possible).

Never had a custom made nib for my handwriting. I wouldn't know how to go about doing that, especially where I live 🙂

 

Love your nib comparison sequence! Wow!

 

Thank you.

[PhiloPlume]

1 hour ago, Karmachanic said:

Mentioned elswhere; Pilot SU stub.

I have a couple, and they are very nice.  They just write a little too big for my normal handwriting size for letters and notes.  Even if I write smaller with them.

 

Thank you

[Penguincollector]

7 minutes ago, PhiloPlume said:

Never had a custom made nib for my handwriting. I wouldn't know how to go about doing that, especially where I live 🙂

 

Love your nib comparison sequence! Wow!

 

Thank you.

 
   What is your location? You can be as general or as specific as you like. There are a few nib technicians around the world and we can help direct you to the closest one. It would most likely not be a nib made to your specifications, but ground down from a larger nib to what you need. There’s one person that I know of that makes nibs from scratch (doesn’t mean there’s not others) but I don’t know if they make bespoke ones. 

[PhiloPlume]

11 hours ago, AmandaW said:

It can go too far and make the line wider than one would like which is especially annoying if you're after a nice fine italic.

Think I will skip them!

 

Thanks

[PhiloPlume]

4 hours ago, Mercian said:

have also encountered a strange, but very pleasant, phenomenon when writing with Sailor ‘Kiwa Guro’ carbon black ink.
It is a permanent black ink that does not ‘feather’ or spread on most papers. It doesn’t feel ‘wet’, but it can make some of my ‘scratchy’ nibs feel smoother.

 

I have that ink!  I swapped it out for something I am doing because it wasn't quite dark enough.  I will put it back in another pen and check, like maybe a Pilot with the CM nib or SU nib (but I usually keep Pilot ink in Pilot pens).

 

Thanks!

[PhiloPlume]

21 minutes ago, Penguincollector said:

What is your location? You can be as general or as specific as you like. There are a few nib technicians around the world and we can help direct you to the closest one. It would most likely not be a nib made to your specifications, but ground down from a larger nib to what you need. There’s one person that I know of that makes nibs from scratch (doesn’t mean there’s not others) but I don’t know if they make bespoke ones. 

 

I would love to try this process! I am in the USA, mountain time (Livingston, Montana and a little east of BozeAngelas (Bozeman hehe)). 59047

 

Franklin-Christoph has an exclusive in the US with famed nib grinder Nagahara, which are very nice on their Cursive-Italic nibs.

[Penguincollector]

Kirk Speer in Colorado is who I have had work on my pens. He does both Cursive Italics and regular. He’s great answering questions via email. There’s also  Matthew Chen who grinds italics and stubs, Gina Salorino in Los Angeles, and you can order pens from Nibs.com and request a special order grind. If you want to get it done in person, the best thing is to come to the PNW Pen Show in July, as Chen, Salorino, and Speer will all be there and can really adjust the nib to you in very little time.

[A Smug Dill]

1 hour ago, PhiloPlume said:

Never had a custom made nib for my handwriting. I wouldn't know how to go about doing that,

 

Santini Italia makes the nibs on its pens in-house, and accepts requests from its direct retail customers to custom ground nibs for pens on order; so I guess that's as “custom made” as one could get. They ship to the US, too, just as they do to Australia. I'd gladly endorse their customer service (but not necessarily their nib grinding work, especially when it comes to very fine and precise stuff).

 

Dan Smith of Nibsmith.com, closer to home for you, did great work customising a couple of nibs on new pens I ordered from him.