Seeking Insights on Kuretake Fountain Brush Pens Model No. 40 and 50

[2ouvenir]

A first test (the ink started a bit brown due to the residual oil but gradually became black)

 

 

Next page...

 

[Number99]

4 hours ago, 2ouvenir said:

After what seems like forever, I finally got the brush pen! Pictured is the no. 50 model. I also got the no. 40 model but I didn't open it. Some quick notes:

 

• It comes with the most beautiful packaging I had so far with any pen. A light wooden box that is neatly packed. Feels way more expensive than what I paid for it. They could've charged more than a hundred dollars (if this were a fountain pen, this pen would've been in the few hundreds range), but I am happy I got it for less than half of that, what a bargain! We'll see how it writes later but I already have a good feeling about it.
• The pen is gorgeous and has a nice weight to it, feels hefty, it is made of brass after all. I open the cap and the brush tip is perfectly shaped and glistening. I unscrew the body and I see that a cartridge filled with what looks like oil is attached, probably what is making the brush tip glistening.
• The cap closes with a satisfying click, so I know now that this pen will not dry. I was worried before, but now I know it's going to seal just as good as like a Platinum Preppy.
• Everything is in Japanese. The labels, the instructions...
• It comes with three cartridges. On the box of the ink cartridges, it just gives you instructions where to get these ink cartridges after you run out. Probably only applicable if you live in Japan.
• The instructions doesn't have anything interesting to say. It just says to not use any other ink other than what came with it.
• Nothing about the composition of the ink is mentioned, but from what I gathered so far, it is supposed to be dye-based, i.e. water-soluble, pH neutral, and non-toxic, so no biocides like phenol.

 

I'm still at work, so I will have to try it out when I get home. The instructions just say to remove the oil cartridge it came with and put an ink cartridge in to get it started. I thought I had to clean it first, but nope, it just said to stick an ink cartridge in and start writing/drawing!

 

@2ouvenir The spare ink in your brush pen box is "pigment ink"(顔料インキ).

It is written in a circle that looks like a round logo on the left.

The string in the middle is Service spare ink 3pcs. (サービススペアインキ３本入り).

 

For translation.

顔料インキ

サービススペアインキ ３本入り

 

P.S.

Maybe the importer didn't translate it because it says like a logo…

 

That's what I expected! The kanji for "心" is written correctly. Many Japanese children make this mistake. (Even some adults write that character incorrectly. 😅)

 

Edited April 9, 2024 by Number99

[2ouvenir]

24 minutes ago, Number99 said:

@2ouvenir The spare ink in your brush pen box is "pigment ink"(顔料インキ).

It is written in a circle that looks like a round logo on the left.

The string in the middle is Service spare ink 3pcs. (サービススペアインキ３本入り).

 

For translation.

顔料インキ

サービススペアインキ ３本入り

 

 

Thanks  Seems like the ink is pigment after all. Sorry!

 

It is indeed quite waterproof:

 

 

No ink budges at all. Perhaps they have changed the formulation because reviewers of this pen have said that the ink it comes with is not waterproof. Yeah no, I dare say this ink outperforms Platinum Carbon Black and Sailor Kiwaguro. Smooth flow, quick dry time, dark, no weird sheen/shading, and 100% waterproof. Magic. 

[2ouvenir]

More testing. On Stalogy paper this time, my favourite paper. Pens can sometimes bleed or feather on this paper, but not with this brush pen/ink combination!

 

 

Just some showthrough as expected; no spotting whatsoever which was a pleasant surprise.

[2ouvenir]

[txomsy]

It is indeed waterproof. Very waterproof.

 

When I forgot a notebook and it got through the laundry (full cycle with soap) all the sketches I had made with the Kuretake pen and ink survived without a scath.

 

[Number99]

14 hours ago, 2ouvenir said:

It is indeed quite waterproof:

 

6 hours ago, txomsy said:

It is indeed waterproof. Very waterproof.

Fude pen was in great demand in Japan as a writing instrument for addressing postcards and sealed envelopes.

In the past, it was customary to send New Year's greetings by mail once a year to all acquaintances who lived far away from each other.

The writing instruments used for addressing mail better prevent the address from blurring even if the mail gets wet in the rain.

 

[Number99]

I had asked Kuretake about the use of dye-based spare ink cartridges in natural hair brush pens.

I received a reply today informing me that it is fine to use them.

Please feel free to use both spare ink cartridges.

 

Here is a link to the spare ink cartridge details page.

Pigment-based spare ink cartridges (DAN106-99H).

https://kuretakeshop.com/collections/spare/products/dan106-99h

Dye-based spare ink cartridge (DAN105-99H).

https://kuretakeshop.com/collections/spare/products/dan105-99h

Please use this information to help in your search for spare ink.

 

 

P.S.

The product page for DAN105-99H only says it is for No. 7 and No. 8. However, on the package, "Mannen Mouhitsu Series" is added to those. The two expressions are obviously different, so I confirmed that with Kuretake.

As for the use of Kuretake's products with the Platinum Converter attached, the company explained in strict Japanese, "We cannot take any responsibility for such use, and you do so only at your own risk.”

 

Edited April 10, 2024 by Number99

[txomsy]

Obviously. They cannot guarantee an external formulation that may change at any time without prior notification.

 

My personal understanding is that it is OK to use FP ink in brush pens. Generally speaking, my impression is that IG ink will work -oddly- better than dye based. I see something similar in skin keratin: dye inks stain and attach to more strongly skin, while IG inks are more readily washable with water.

 

I suppose it has to do with electrical charges in protein amino acids vs electrical charges in cellulose sugars. Negatively charged sugars react better with IG inks' Fe++ leading to permanent staining, but not with non-permanent inks. Positively charged proteins in the skin on the other hand, react better with non-permanent inks and worse with IG, and so IG stains are easy to wash in skin and permanent on paper, and (apparently) vice versa.

 

But that is just my supposition. If I'm not mistaken, then permanent inks would be safer to use with natural hair than non-permanent ones. I  seem to remember having read others report similarly. But do not take my word for it! I am most likely wrong.

[2ouvenir]

56 minutes ago, txomsy said:

If I'm not mistaken, then permanent inks would be safer to use with natural hair than non-permanent ones.

 

I mean it's totally possible. I would probably want pigment rather than water-soluble dyes on my hair. As for pigment inks that are quite alkaline that may affect the natural bristles that are generally "acidic" in nature, one can greatly reduce its alkalinity by diluting it by half with water. This also reduces the risk of clogging and doesn't really affect the performance of the ink much on paper either.

 

I've resolved that after I finish the Kuretake cartridges I will use Platinum Carbon Black cartridges and bottled ink (because that's what I have and many people seem to use it with this brush with little problems). I will slightly dilute them with water. Actually to be safe, I might keep the original Kuretake cartridges and reuse them with the Pt C black ink from the bottle first before I use the Pt C cartridges since I do not know about the fit, I have heard of leakages using Pt products on Kuretake.

[Number99]

I should clarify here that the intent of my previous post was limited to the use of spare ink cartridges from Kuretake.

The inks that I described as being usable by Kuretake are the brush pen-specific inks that Kuretake markets, not fountain pen inks, which are in a completely different category.

This information does not include any comparable element between spare ink for brush pens and fountain pen ink. 

Please stop twisting the facts as if I informed you that Kuretake approved the use of fountain pen ink.

 

I think what @txomsy is describing is the phenomenon and principle of "dyeing".

Note that fountain pen ink is not necessarily required to have the property of staining paper. It is natural that some things will dye or not dye with fountain pen ink.

 

Dye, which is a solute in solution, needs to dissociate in order to dissolve in a solvent, which is often an acidic or alkaline environment.

 

Pigments, on the other hand, are not dissolved in a solvent, but are simply particles floating in a solution.

In Oriental pigment inks for brush strokes, water is colloidalized by the addition of gelatin, which gives the pigment particles the ability to float.

If pigments are simply mixed with water, the pigment particles will settle in the liquid over time.

In addition, glue gives the pigment particles the ability to adhere to the paper. It is the glue that fixes, and the pigment particles fix as a mixture of glue. Oriental paints are also mixed with glue.

 

Because of this difference in starting point, the behavior and principles of fountain pen ink and East Asian hairbrush ink are fundamentally different.

 

As for materials, one is a natural material while the other is a special metal with strong acid resistance.

Is it possible to apply the theory of fountain pen ink to brush pens?

Is that starting line correct?

 

The existence of special inks developed by brush pen manufacturers is the result of technology, huge investment, accumulation of knowledge, and labor.

 

 

The interpretation of "safe" and "dangerous" differs depending on where the performance of the brush pen is sought.

 

Whether the user is writing text within the lines of a brush pen on a 6mm ruled line, or whether he or she is writing an address or certain text on a small postcard.

Whether the user is going to draw a picture of the elaborate arrangement of hair.

The interpretation of "safe" and "dangerous" differs between those who use brush pens for such purposes and those whose goal is to create more daring and rough level works of art.

 

 

Edited April 11, 2024 by Number99

[txomsy]

In fountain pen world you get the same advice, and as I said, with sound basis: one maker cannot guarantee the ink produced by a different one will never change formulation as they have no control over them. So makers always recommend you use their own ink. Sometimes because it has been specially formulated to work better (e.g. drier inks for wetter fountain pens and vice versa). Not to mention the potential of FUD to keep customers loyal to the brand.

 

Experience has shown that practically most FP inks are safe t use in any FP, getting at most hard starts if one uses a dry ink on a dry pen, or gushes if it is a wet ink in a wet pen.

 

As for brush pens? I'd refer to other people's experience. When I got my Kuretakes, I researched artists blogs and pen sellers. As much as I could. Consense seems to be that FP inks are mostly usable on most brush pens, with perhaps the caveats I mentioned.

 

Some examples:

 

https://www.jetpens.com/blog/Fountain-Brush-Pens-Brush-Pens-That-Take-Fountain-Pen-Ink/pt/215

 

https://www.parkablogs.com/picture/review-kuretake-no-40-50-sable-brush-pen

 

or even here

 

[txomsy]

Added: I just checked and see that now, the price of the sable replacements has raised significantly -to almost the double- so I may consider being more paranoid... but even so, getting Kuretake ink bottled or in cartridges from Japan is still significantly expensive.

 

[Number99]

1 hour ago, txomsy said:

In fountain pen world you get the same advice, and as I said, with sound basis: one maker cannot guarantee the ink produced by a different one will never change formulation as they have no control over them. So makers always recommend you use their own ink. Sometimes because it has been specially formulated to work better (e.g. drier inks for wetter fountain pens and vice versa). Not to mention the potential of FUD to keep customers loyal to the brand.

 

Experience has shown that practically most FP inks are safe t use in any FP, getting at most hard starts if one uses a dry ink on a dry pen, or gushes if it is a wet ink in a wet pen.

 

As for brush pens? I'd refer to other people's experience. When I got my Kuretakes, I researched artists blogs and pen sellers. As much as I could. Consense seems to be that FP inks are mostly usable on most brush pens, with perhaps the caveats I mentioned.

 

Some examples:

 

https://www.jetpens.com/blog/Fountain-Brush-Pens-Brush-Pens-That-Take-Fountain-Pen-Ink/pt/215

 

https://www.parkablogs.com/picture/review-kuretake-no-40-50-sable-brush-pen

 

or even here

 

Have you considered that the more the custom of putting fountain pen ink in natural hair brush pens becomes established overseas, the more likely it is that Brush Pen Manufacturer will be hesitant to sell its products overseas?

It means that an environment will be established overseas where Brush Pen Manufacturer cannot guarantee its products.

How would the prices of pens and ink fluctuate in such an environment?

Is this situation beneficial to the writing instrument enthusiast?

I will no longer be involved in this matter.

 

Edited April 12, 2024 by Number99
Refrain from using specific manufacturer designations.

[txomsy]

I am sorry you think the conversation is not worth continuing, we might all learn something from each other.

 

The dilemma you present is faced by any and all manufacturers. A frying pan will lose its non-stick coating if not cleaned properly. A vitroceramic kitchen will lose its luster. A dishwasher may get lime crust without the recommended liquids. Everyone -at least, this side of "overseas"- understands that there are products recommended by the maker for maintenance and use and that not using them might potentially result in unwarranted behavior in the short or the long term.

 

Personally, I cannot safely say if a brush pen will work with anything other that the original makers' ink. But I can see that a maker might get more profit if us "gaijins" understand that then the guarantee is lost and if we do use them we may have to buy more pens or brush units. How does one maker earn more money, selling one pen or selling one pen and several replacement brush units?

 

Yes, they may not sell as much of their ink as if users only bought theirs. But if the ink were as readily available here and knowing of its good properties (I know Kuretate brush-pen ink is exceptionally good), maybe that would not be that much of a loss for them.

 

Talking only for me, I fail to see why should I, if I buy a Montblanc pen, be restricted to only using it with Motblanc ink, on Montblanc paper, in Montblanc cases, wearing a Montblanc watch and everything else. Or if I buy a brush pen.

 

Surely I am missing some key points here, and I would love to know, for I really love my Kuretake pens and want to care for them properly. That is why I am sorry you decided to leave the discussion. We (at least I) could learn a lot.

[Number99]

I have not abandoned the idea of exchanging posts with you.

 

It is because I have decided that no matter how much I explain it, you will not understand as long as there is a gap between me, who has moved from brush calligraphy learned as a child to brush pens over the years, and the viewer who suddenly picks up a brush pen of the type used by advanced users.

At the same time, once I had received and read the company's email with their intentions, any deeper involvement in the topic would have put me under pressure due to the great power between the company and the unseen, unknowing user.

 

The most ideal situation would be to make the ink cartridges of brush pen manufacturers available to foreign users. I have shared cartridge ink model numbers and website indications in this thread. 

So, I'm done talking about this.

 

P.S.

DAN106-99H market selling price.

Japan

*290 JPY (0.5 Big Mac.)

U.S.A.

$3.25 (0.7 Big Mac.)

Netherlands

€3.95 (0.7 Big Mac)

Overseas retailers have low stock…

 

*Price for one pack when you buy two packs at Amazon JP.

 

Edited April 14, 2024 by Number99

[txomsy]

It's not that I suddenly picked an advanced brush pen. I started Chinese calligraphy some 27 years ago, with my first brush pens, ink, seal and stone set, and plan on learning Japanese this summer.  Yet, when I picked my first writing set at Peking University during a trip, I also got a set primary colors (plus white and green) ink sticks for brush painting. I've never been only Calligraphy oriented.

 

I assume that the Kolinsky sable brushes I have used for watercolor are not that much lower quality from Kuretake's sable brushes (might be wrong, though).

 

I understand the reverence one develops for appreciated and beloved writing pens/brushes. And feel a similar appreciation for my vintage fountain pens.

 

Yet, vintage FPs are irreplaceable any more. I try to be extra careful with them. And even so, I still use many modern inks in them.

 

What I fail to understand is what makes that sable hair so special that it can only be used with some very specific ink, when other sable (even much, much more expensive and exclusive) brushes are often used with a variety of media (watercolor, gouache, acrylics...). Or those pen so special that their sections will clog with water-based ink and not with sumi ink.

 

Surely my knowledge of natural hair and sumi ink physics-chemistry must be too limited, for I cannot get it to match. And being a barbarian foreigner I lack the brand loyalty and cultural background needed to appreciate the minutiae of Japanese brush pens.

 

So far, I haven't had any problem. I suppose that in due time I'll come to realize the wrong consequences of my erroneous ways, but knowing I can get extra units at a not too onerous price gives me the confidence to pursue this sacrilegious experimenting.

 

OTOH, if Zig-Kuretake were to refuse selling overseas (which so far does seem to me to be the opposite trend) that would be a suicide move: right now, when I search for brush FPs in Europe, I basically get Pentel and Kuretake (with the occasional Western brand). Should Japanese brands stop exports, they'd concede an already conquered whole global market to cheap Chinese knock-offs for free, which sounds to me rather un-Japanese.

 

But I may be wrong.

 

[AmericanMonk]

7 hours ago, Number99 said:

It is because I have decided that no matter how much I explain it, you will not understand

+1

 

In the event that you're not already aware, you can click on the ellipsis at the upper right of any post to report any message as harassment. Also, he can be blocked. If you scroll all the way to the top of this page and click on your own name in the upper-right portion of the screen, you'll find an "Ignored User" option above the "Sign Out" option. I make use of the ignore feature for anyone whose biggest contribution to the community is their ego, and I haven't noticed any decline in the quality of content at this site.

 

For my part, I did not realize that sables were killed in the process; I naively assumed that they were sheered like sheep or were otherwise just given a haircut. I appreciate your insights. I've learned a fair amount from everybody's input in this thread... just... not all of it was positive or pleasant. 😆

 

C'est la vie!

 

I have a question: @2ouvenir mentioned that the pen came with a cartridge of oil. I replaced that oil with distilled water. Does anybody know what kind of oil was in that cartridge?

[Number99]

On 4/15/2024 at 4:46 AM, AmericanMonk said:

+1

 

In the event that you're not already aware, you can click on the ellipsis at the upper right of any post to report any message as harassment. Also, he can be blocked. If you scroll all the way to the top of this page and click on your own name in the upper-right portion of the screen, you'll find an "Ignored User" option above the "Sign Out" option. I make use of the ignore feature for anyone whose biggest contribution to the community is their ego, and I haven't noticed any decline in the quality of content at this site.

 

For my part, I did not realize that sables were killed in the process; I naively assumed that they were sheered like sheep or were otherwise just given a haircut. I appreciate your insights. I've learned a fair amount from everybody's input in this thread... just... not all of it was positive or pleasant. 😆

 

C'est la vie!

 

I have a question: @2ouvenir mentioned that the pen came with a cartridge of oil. I replaced that oil with distilled water. Does anybody know what kind of oil was in that cartridge?

Yeah…

 

C'est la vie…

 

Now I will talk about transparent ink.

I could not find a description of transparent ink on the Kuretake website, but a specialty brush pen store that sells Mannen mouhistu describes it on their website as follows

https://www.fudepen.com/faq/clogging.html

It is described as "a transparent liquid containing preservatives" and describes its function as "preventing the tip of the pen from drying out.

 

Natural hair brush pens sold by various manufacturers are fitted with similar platinum-type cartridges, and most manufacturers describe them as " transparent ink”.

I once inquired about this to another company, and they advised me not to worry about it after the cartridge ink is installed because it is installed to be ready for immediate use after purchase.

In other words, the ink cartridges have the same function.

 

Although not a kuretake, I would like to share a link to the general handling instructions page for brush pens, including " Mannen mouhistu" on the Japanese website of the brush pen specialty store "fudepen.com" for your reference.

They recommend that you insert a new ink cartridge and keep the pen on its side for long-term storage. (It is usually stored upright with the tip facing up.)

https://www.fudepen.com/guidance/about.html

 

If it is unclear what the "preservative" in transparent ink is, it would be difficult to fill an empty cartridge with anything other than "distilled water". In my personal opinion, I would guess that if there is no "preservative" added, there is a possibility of spoilage and microbial growth inside the pen.

I think the most reliable maintenance method is to use the pen frequently.

 

*When the ink output becomes poor, I wash the tip of the pen gently and carefully in a cup with water. In my case.

 

P.S.

*This is what I do when ink output is slightly poor after daily use. For severe cases of poor ink output due to long-term non-use, Kuretake explains that soaking and washing until the cup water becomes clean for about 4 days may help recovery.

 

Edited April 16, 2024 by Number99
P.S. etc.

[ray.pierrewit]

I've been using kolinsky sable brushes for drawing comic books for over 20 years and have just ordered the Kuretake no 50.

 

In order of importance, I'd say that being truly black comes before being waterproof.

 

I'd like to syringe fill the included cartridges and was wondering if the Zig Cartoonist (https://www.amazon.ca/Zig-Cartoonist-Highly-Opaque-Black/dp/B006MW7NE6?th=1) ink is the same as what's included in the box.