Seeking Insights on Kuretake Fountain Brush Pens Model No. 40 and 50

[2ouvenir]

Dear FPN Members,

 

I'm interested in hearing about your experiences with the Kuretake Fountain Brush Pens Model No. 40 and 50. I'm particularly curious about how you store them when they are inked and not inked, and whether you've experimented with using pigment inks such as Platinum Carbon Black in these brush pens.

 

Specifically, I'm wondering:

 

• How do the Kuretake Fountain Brush Pens Model No. 40 and 50 perform in terms of ink flow and line variation?
• What methods do you use for storing these pens when they are inked and not in use? Do you encounter any issues with drying or leakage?
• Have any of you used pigment inks like Platinum Carbon Black in these pens? If so, have you noticed any adverse effects on the pens over time, such as clogging or damage to the brush tip?

 

I greatly appreciate any insights or experiences you can share regarding these fountain brush pens. Thank you for your time and assistance!

 

Warm regards,

 

2ouvenir

[2ouvenir]

Nobody has anything to say about these brush pens? I thought they were quite popular?!

 

Anyways if anyone was curious, I found this useful video. The guy did recommend Noodler's black or a black pigment ink from Sailor and Platinum, but he didn't really say much about the long-term use of the pigment inks in these pens just that he recommends to wash the brushes once a month lol. I think I saw another video that said that the Carbon ink eventually damaged the brush after long time use and the brush eventually didn't hold its shape anymore. Otherwise these brushes are supposed to last at least five years.

 

 

To be safe, my recommendation is to use only a foolproof black water-based, dye-based ink (e.g., Pilot Black) in these brushes, especially if you favor longevity of the pen over waterproofness of your art/writing. My feeling is that these brushes are too sensitive for pigment inks, especially when a converter system is used. Pigment particles traveling through the entire strands of these brushes can't be good for their health; think of rocks tumbling in a river. Anyway, of course, I could be wrong, but it's better to err on the side of caution since nobody seems to have any idea about this.

[DrPlush]

I think the brushes will always get damaged eventually (it’s the same for paint brushes and makeup brushes) and Kuretake sell replacement brush ends. I have a different model brush pen (I can’t remember which off the top of my head) and I use pigment ink in it because that’s what’s practical for me and the bristles won’t last forever either way. Plus, my impression is definitely that my makeup brushes deal with far more abrasive textures than any ink, so I’m not too concerned.

[2ouvenir]

46 minutes ago, DrPlush said:

I think the brushes will always get damaged eventually (it’s the same for paint brushes and makeup brushes) and Kuretake sell replacement brush ends. I have a different model brush pen (I can’t remember which off the top of my head) and I use pigment ink in it because that’s what’s practical for me and the bristles won’t last forever either way. Plus, my impression is definitely that my makeup brushes deal with far more abrasive textures than any ink, so I’m not too concerned.

Sable or nylon? Because these two models are the only models that use sable hairs and if you have a different model then it's probably made up of nylon which is more durable. Also supposedly the replacement brushes are of a lesser quality than the brushes in the original pen.

[DrPlush]

8 minutes ago, 2ouvenir said:

Sable or nylon? Because these two models are the only models that use sable hairs and if you have a different model then it's probably made up of nylon which is more durable.

A different brand of natural brush (Platinum I think). But I don’t think it matters too much to the content of my previous post — my main points were that the Kuretake brush heads aren’t meant to last forever anyway and can be replaced, and paint and makeup brushes of similar materials survive much worse than ink.

[AmericanMonk]

On 3/31/2024 at 9:57 PM, 2ouvenir said:

• How do the Kuretake Fountain Brush Pens Model No. 40 and 50 perform in terms of ink flow and line variation?
• What methods do you use for storing these pens when they are inked and not in use? Do you encounter any issues with drying or leakage?
• Have any of you used pigment inks like Platinum Carbon Black in these pens? If so, have you noticed any adverse effects on the pens over time, such as clogging or damage to the brush tip?

 

I have the 40 w/ sable hair but not the 50. I used it for writing; I'm not much of an illustrator.

• Ink flow was always good; consistent. No complaints there. I used a Platinum converter.
• The pen's cap isn't air tight and the ink can evaporate so I wouldn't leave it inked and unused for a while unless you enjoy cleaning brushes.
• I do not recall any leakage during writing but there is some "nib creep" of sorts. If I keep my fingers above the gold band near the bristles, they stay clean. But the plastic nearest the bristles gets ink on it, even when not in use, which can transfer to the inside of the cap and move from there. But I think that what I experience is just Fluid Dynamics 101. I store my pens horizontally and gravity is a harsh mistress.
• Line variation was as advertised. I'm sure you know that brushes tend to lose their finest lines over time. I'm not sure if you can get away from that. I bought mine in 2016 and can still get an EF line, but I haven't used it much.
• The pen comes with a cartridge filled with (what I assume was) some kind of distilled water. When I store my pen I make sure I give it a less-than-perfect cleaning 🥴, drain the old distilled water and replace with fresh distilled water, and store it with my empty pens. I have had the water cartridge dry out over a period of years. By my eye, I clean the brush thoroughly until only clear water comes out, but now the water cartridge is filled with a dark grey ink. I couldn't say where the ink was hiding but... some ink was hiding and the distilled water coaxed it out. I occasionally have the same issue with my fountain pens and syringes, so maybe chalk it up to user error and/or clingy inks. A naked-eye inspection of the bristles don't show any damage and it still writes well, despite being technically inked up for years.
• I own/use Carbon Black but never got around to trying it in the Kuretake. I'd expect a difficult cleaning but otherwise wouldn't hesitate to try it.
• An aside: I used only Noodler's Black (NB) with my Kuretake and it worked flawlessly, but I wouldn't use NB again. I've had problems with some Noodler's inks separating, including Black. A vigorous 1-2 minute shake of the bottle prior to filling gets the precipitate back into solution but I've had [Kiowa] Pecan separate inside of a pen within 24 hours of filling. Blobs of reddish-orangish-brownish have clogged the feed and/or plop out on to the page. Noodler's Heart of Darkness (HoD) has been good for me, so far, but Noodler's is notoriously inconsistent. Some say that NB is darker than HoD and others say the opposite. I suspect that they're all right. My HoD is darker than my Black. I've never put their colorfastness to the test.

I don't use my Kuretake much but that isn't the pen's fault. I found out very quickly that I was not a natural with brush pens, especially ones like the Kuretake and its relatively long/flexible bristles. I underestimated just how much skill goes into keeping a smooth, consistent fine line. I'm a lefty who has "mastered" the art of writing the messy way. I'm used to dragging the knife edge of my hand along the page. Also, coffee is my indulgence. I can be jittery sometimes, so any art tool that does best when hovering over (or having little hand contact with) the page isn't ideal for me. I've got old habits to unlearn and new muscle memory to develop before I get acceptable results.

 

Believe it or not, I was looking for a brush pen for use in the office. I wanted to make my desk job less dreary and was looking for something dependable, consistent, clean, archival, and easy. The Kuretake does a fine job of all of those things except the "easy" part, so I wound up preferring the Tombow Fudenosuke and all the forgiveness and constraints that come with those. Practicing the Kuretake gets bumped down my priority list but posts like yours spurs that creative nag of, "put a bright, colorful ink in there and practice, practice, practice!" I tried a few other disposables but nothing else came close to the Kuretake and Tombows.

[txomsy]

I have them. Quickly substituted the acrylic by sable brushes. There is a difference... I also got Platinum converters.

 

I use them for sketching. Always inked. Sometimes it may take three or four months between uses, though. They are always in a leather pouch with other fountain pens. Haven't considered other possibilities yet, although I keep the 100 million years wooden boxes.

 

I like to have them always at hand, but last year they've been phased out by short lead holders which I can carry in a jean's pocket and thus are easier to have at hand. The Kuretakes being full-length fountain pens require a shirt pocket where they are less secure. So I've done more sketching with graphite, charcoal and sanguine. But I'm retaking washes, for love of this pens to a large extent.

 

I just got a very cheap A5-size wooden pochade box (actually a "postman/writer box") with leather strap in Aliexpress for carrying plein air sketching supplies and will likely stick one in it with an A6 sketchbook, a watercolor tin box and some travel brushes.

 

I use them mainly with both, Kuretake black and with Noodler's Lexington Grey.

 

So far never a problem. They seal perfectly. They start immediately even after months unused. The sable hair is a dream come true. I haven't had any special precautions and subjected them to tons of abuse. They are still great.

 

Mine are urushi (factory/silk screen, I suppose, given the price) coated, but look gorgeous. A burgundy-red lacquered one (aka-tamenuri?) and two 100 million years. I am considering getting a new one, but I am short on budget and would want to get the pen, a sable tip and a converter all together.

 

Also considering whether it may make sense to keep one always loaded with only water for washes, and one loaded in another color of ink.

 

They are simply amazing. Never have had any issue. Sturdy (brass body and cap). Perfect seal. Minimal maintenance. Great overall. In my most humble opinion top-notch and exceedingly good value for money, mostly so with the sable hair tips.

 

If I had to point anything negative, it is that they are too gorgeous and I feel always afraid of losing one (I am so careless).

[2ouvenir]

@DrPlush @AmericanMonk @txomsy Thanks for your replies. I will take all your advice into consideration 

 

I found another video regarding inks to use in the brush pens in case people were interested.

 

[AmericanMonk]

14 hours ago, 2ouvenir said:

I will take all your advice into consideration 

 

I found another video

 

Cool! Don't forget to come back and let us know what you ultimately decided to do and post pictures of any of your creations!

[2ouvenir]

3 hours ago, AmericanMonk said:

 

Cool! Don't forget to come back and let us know what you ultimately decided to do and post pictures of any of your creations!

Oh okay, will do!

[Number99]

18 hours ago, 2ouvenir said:

@DrPlush @AmericanMonk @txomsy Thanks for your replies. I will take all your advice into consideration 

 

I found another video regarding inks to use in the brush pens in case people were interested.

 

I only use inks specified by the manufacturer for natural hair brush pens.

The reason for this is that the use of inks other than Sumi-ink, red pigmented ink, and pigmented paints is prohibited in brush calligraphy and oriental painting, which are done with brushes made entirely of natural materials.

 

These animal-derived materials are composed of protein (keratin) and are extremely delicate due to the anatomical microstructure of the cuticle on their surfaces.

 

Sumi-ink, a pigmented paint that we East Asians have been using for over a millennium, is nearly neutral in consistency and makes sense to use in light of historical experience, zo anatomy, and physiology.

 

Animal-derived writing materials are based on the sacrifice of many animal lives.

The most memorable lesson I learned from my brush calligraphy teacher was that we should pay respect to their precious lives.

 

Kuretake has a dye spare ink on the market, but does it allow for use on natural hair brush pens? (Their website explains that it is for No. 8 only.)

 

Many fountain pen inks deviate from the neutral range, please explain the basis on which the fountain pen ink you recommend is safe for natural hair.

 

P.S.

Sorry for the bad translation, but "near neutral" and "neutral range" in the text refer to pH.

Edited April 5 by Number99
Correcting double translations (proofreading errors)

[2ouvenir]

@Number99 Well the ink that comes with it is a water-based dye-based one which is what I intend to use first. I do not know if it is neutral or not. Iroshizuku take-sumi has a pH of 8.5, so slightly alkaline in water. I do not know the acidity of Pilot Black but I don't think it is neutral. I will definitely not use sumi ink in these fountain brush pens though, neutral or not, because it contains things like binding agents that will absolutely destroy the pen. You do bring up a valid point that fountain pen inks are probably not best for the sable brushes because they may not be neutral and contains other harmful ingredients like biocides... hmmm more research has to be done!

 

P.S. Ideally I do not want to have to stick to the original ink that came with these brush pens because they are not easily purchased where I am and they are always out of stock. One solution I guess is to clean the brushes after each use (if using other inks) to minimize the damage.

 

P.P.S. Yes I intend to do some sort of calligraphy with these brush pens and I do intend to respect the sable bristles on the brushes.

 

P.P.P.S. I am thinking maybe I should've just gotten a normal (non-fountain) brush after all. Lol. But these fountain pen brushes are so beautiful especially the tortoise-shell looking one.

 

P.P.P.P.S For some reason I thought sable was like the hair on the horse tail (maybe because it sounds like stable). It's not! They are these cute little furry dudes.

 

 

P.P.P.P.P.S "However, it's essential to note that not all brushes labeled as "sable" are made from sable fur. Due to conservation concerns and ethical considerations, many modern brushes labeled as "sable" are actually made from synthetic fibers or other types of animal hair, such as Kolinsky, which comes from the tail of a particular species of weasel. These synthetic or alternative natural hair brushes can mimic the qualities of genuine sable brushes while offering more sustainable and cruelty-free options. Genuine sable brushes are renowned for their exceptional quality and performance, particularly in watercolor and oil painting where they can hold a large amount of paint or water and maintain a precise point. However, they are also typically more expensive compared to synthetic or alternative natural hair brushes."

 

I do not know if these Kuretake brushes actually use sable or not even if the English description says it is "authentic sable". The Japanese label just says "original hair" so I guess it could be anything? Does anyone know? I mean if it is made out of these cute furry dudes then more reason to make sure I don't damage the brushes.

[Number99]

2 hours ago, 2ouvenir said:

Well the ink that comes with it is a water-based dye-based one which is what I intend to use first. I do not know if it is neutral or not. Iroshizuku take-sumi has a pH of 8.5, so slightly alkaline in water. I do not know the acidity of Pilot Black but I don't think it is neutral. I will definitely not use sumi ink in these fountain brush pens though, neutral or not, because it contains things like binding agents that will absolutely destroy the pen. You do bring up a valid point that fountain pen inks are probably not best for the sable brushes because they may not be neutral and contains other harmful ingredients like biocides... hmmm more research has to be done!

Sorry for posting a statement that could be interpreted that way, I meant to write that I only use inks specified by the manufacturer for natural hair brush pens.

I have never used Sumi-ink in a brush pen either.

 

I checked the Kuretake website again and the water-based dye-based spare ink cartridges are listed as exclusively for Fountain Brush Pens No. 8.

The water-based pigment-based spare ink cartridges are designated exclusively for use with Fountain Brush Pens.

Did the Fountain Brush Pens package you received come with instructions translated from Japanese into your native language?

https://www.kuretake.co.jp/product/brush-pen/brush/spareinktype

 

I recommend that you take the time to scour the website.

U.S. version.

https://www.kuretakezig.us/

Kuretake Japan headquarters.

https://www.kuretake.co.jp/

 

Having said that, the most significant factor that damages brushes, including brush pens, is improper movement of strokes associated with inexperience of the writer's technique.

I believe that excessively quick strokes against the brush or the application of force to the brush, as in the case of Western-style sketching, will accelerate the wear and tear on the pen.

 

2 hours ago, 2ouvenir said:

which comes from the tail of a particular species of weasel.

One needs to confirm whether they are using the hair from the tail that is not used for fur or whether they are keeping the weasels alive and waiting a year for the summer hair to grow before repeatedly collecting it.

Their description in Japan is not that of a sable, but that of a "weasel," which has been widely treated as a vermin in Japan.

It may paralyze buyers' resistance.

 

[2ouvenir]

54 minutes ago, Number99 said:

The water-based pigment-based spare ink cartridges are designated exclusively for use with Fountain Brush Pens.

Did the Fountain Brush Pens package you received come with instructions translated from Japanese into your native language?

 

I haven't actually received it yet 😳, but it should come in the mail this coming Monday. My guess is that the ink that they use for the fountain brush pens are different from fountain pen ink. It's listed as certified non-toxic, so you can actually eat it, but you'd definitely not want to eat fountain pen ink.

 

54 minutes ago, Number99 said:

Having said that, the most significant factor that damages brushes, including brush pens, is improper movement of strokes associated with inexperience of the writer's technique.

I believe that excessively quick strokes against the brush or the application of force to the brush, as in the case of Western-style sketching, will accelerate the wear and tear on the pen.

 

Us westerners do tend to have a reputation for recklessly destroying things, so I do want to be more careful, which is why I started this thread! But I did have Chinese calligraphy lessons where I used freshly ground ink (sumi?) with a non-fountain-pen brush so I think I have some (though very little) technique in using a brush. 

 

 

You can see the person, in the above video, when doing calligraphy, holds the pen like a normal pen; this is probably because of the design of the pen so that you cannot hold it properly like one does with a normal East Asian calligraphy brush. So I guess one has to make compromises with this instrument when doing East Asian calligraphy.

 

Anyways I really like the links you sent me... and I somehow bumped into this link: https://www.kuretake.co.jp/special/brush-pen/brush/mannen/series.html#bekkocyo which shows a lot of very very beautiful brush pens. They do not have these in the NA market. I am so jealous of people living in Japan. I think I may be more of a brush person than a pen person.

[Number99]

3 hours ago, 2ouvenir said:

I did have Chinese calligraphy lessons where I used freshly ground ink (sumi?) with a non-fountain-pen brush so I think I have some (though very little) technique in using a brush. 

I too think it is important to know how to hold the brush.

In that sense, I think it is good to point out that when someone starts brush calligraphy, they get instruction from an expert.

I learned brush calligraphy in school for one hour a week during my compulsory education period.

Most Japanese, with the exception of serious brush calligraphers, have only learned brush calligraphy for that amount of time.

The brush calligraphy teacher at my school did not teach me much. 

So(?) I am still a beginner.

 

3 hours ago, 2ouvenir said:

You can see the person, in the above video, when doing calligraphy, holds the pen like a normal pen; this is probably because of the design of the pen so that you cannot hold it properly like one does with a normal East Asian calligraphy brush. So I guess one has to make compromises with this instrument when doing East Asian calligraphy.

There are many ways to hold a brush, but the person in the video has the pen just after the second joint from the tip of the index finger, which is correct for writing with a brush pen.

 

【単鉤法】はペンと同じ持ち方といっても、立てる角度が全く異なります。立てる角度は７５～８５度くらい、９０度に近くてもOKです。

Translation.

The "single hook" method is the same as holding a pen, but the angle at which the pen is held is completely different. The angle is about 75 to 85 degrees, or even closer to 90 degrees.

 

The above was taken from an article at the following link.

https://ameblo.jp/atene-official/entry-12641553509.html

 

3 hours ago, 2ouvenir said:

and I somehow bumped into this link: https://www.kuretake.co.jp/special/brush-pen/brush/mannen/series.html#bekkocyo which shows a lot of very very beautiful brush pens. They do not have these in the NA market

Have you found them?

They are harmful to one's wallet.

😁

 

 

[2ouvenir]

2 hours ago, Number99 said:

There are many ways to hold a brush, but the person in the video has the pen just after the second joint from the tip of the index finger, which is correct for writing with a brush pen.

 

【単鉤法】はペンと同じ持ち方といっても、立てる角度が全く異なります。立てる角度は７５～８５度くらい、９０度に近くてもOKです。

Translation.

The "single hook" method is the same as holding a pen, but the angle at which the pen is held is completely different. The angle is about 75 to 85 degrees, or even closer to 90 degrees.

 

The above was taken from an article at the following link.

https://ameblo.jp/atene-official/entry-12641553509.html

 

Wow this is super informative, thank you! I was taught to hold it the second way, numbered (2) 双鉤法 in the diagram. But I guess I can learn the (1) 単鉤法 when I use the fountain brush pen. I really want to take calligraphy lessons again, but the Chinese calligraphy schools are so far away from where I live. I guess there's always YouTube. Oh! And your link also has some other links that has informative lessons too, like: https://ameblo.jp/atene-official/entry-12770578407.html very interesting. How nice one can go on a trial lesson: https://www.atene-kyoiku.co.jp/lesson/ Someone please go on my behalf lol.

 

2 hours ago, Number99 said:

Have you found them?

They are harmful to one's wallet.

😁

 

I think I got enough fountain brush pens, hehe. The next thing to buy, if I were to buy anything calligraphy-related is a normal brush, without the fountain element so I can worry less about what ink to use. 

 

 

[2ouvenir]

On 4/5/2024 at 4:08 PM, 2ouvenir said:

I do not know the acidity of Pilot Black

 

I found out it's between pH 9 and 9.5, as is Platinum Carbon Black. So Pilot Black is a bit more alkaline than Pilot Take-sumi. And Sailor Black is, at about pH 10.5, is more alkaline than all of them. They are all considered moderately alkaline and while safe for minimal healthy-human-skin exposure, it's probably not safe for sable hairs: "Even slightly alkaline solutions will strip the natural oils from the hair, causing it to become dry, brittle, and break. It is recommended to use neutral pH for all natural hair brushes. This is especially true for fountain pen brushes as the hairs are in contact with the ink for extended periods of time."

 

So if you had to use a fountain pen ink, I'd say go for more neutral ones, like Pelikan Onyx or Caran d'Ache Cosmic Black. If you want a pigment ink, then you can use Sailor Kiwaguro which is fairly neutral, but recommended to dilute it a little with distilled water to prevent clogging. Acidity isn't the only factor to consider but it is one of the main ones when using a natural bristle brush, I've found. (Of course, you can do whatever you want, but if you care about the longevity of your natural brushes, then follow these recommendations.)

 

[2ouvenir]

A related documentary: I wonder if Kuretake brushes are also made similarly like this. 

 

 

[2ouvenir]

After what seems like forever, I finally got the brush pen! Pictured is the no. 50 model. I also got the no. 40 model but I didn't open it. Some quick notes:

 

• It comes with the most beautiful packaging I had so far with any pen. A light wooden box that is neatly packed. Feels way more expensive than what I paid for it. They could've charged more than a hundred dollars (if this were a fountain pen, this pen would've been in the few hundreds range), but I am happy I got it for less than half of that, what a bargain! We'll see how it writes later but I already have a good feeling about it.
• The pen is gorgeous and has a nice weight to it, feels hefty, it is made of brass after all. I open the cap and the brush tip is perfectly shaped and glistening. I unscrew the body and I see that a cartridge filled with what looks like oil is attached, probably what is making the brush tip glistening.
• The cap closes with a satisfying click, so I know now that this pen will not dry. I was worried before, but now I know it's going to seal just as good as like a Platinum Preppy.
• Everything is in Japanese. The labels, the instructions...
• It comes with three cartridges. On the box of the ink cartridges, it just gives you instructions where to get these ink cartridges after you run out. Probably only applicable if you live in Japan.
• The instructions doesn't have anything interesting to say. It just says to not use any other ink other than what came with it.
• Nothing about the composition of the ink is mentioned, but from what I gathered so far, it is supposed to be dye-based, i.e. water-soluble, pH neutral, and non-toxic, so no biocides like phenol. (Edit: thanks @Number99 for pointing out the ink cartridges are actually pigment-based!)

 

I'm still at work, so I will have to try it out when I get home. The instructions just say to remove the oil cartridge it came with and put an ink cartridge in to get it started. I thought I had to clean it first, but nope, it just said to stick an ink cartridge in and start writing/drawing!

 

[txomsy]

That is a great pen at a great price. Take good care of it and you will extract lost of joy off it.