Where Do You Draw the Line? Price per Milliliter Threshold for Ink Purchases

[mulrich]

I probably prefer smaller bottles of ink, which normally have higher cost per ml but lower overall price, because I know I'll probably never finish the bottle. I have so many inks that I'm unlikely to ever finish another bottle of ink.

[inkstainedruth]

  On 4/2/2024 at 4:17 PM, Beechwood said:

Must admit, I like the MB shoe bottle, that must be worth some money even when empty,

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I found an empty one for $1 US in an antiques mall someplace on the way out to Chicago and back a few years ago when they moved the Chicago Pen Show to the fall.  Don't remember now whether the place was in Ohio or Indiana.  

Not sure what I've done with it, but figured at the time I bought it that I could clean (and maybe sterilize) it and then use some ink that comes in a badly designed bottle in it.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[RJS]

  On 4/2/2024 at 6:24 PM, Mulrich said:

I probably prefer smaller bottles of ink, which normally have higher cost per ml but lower overall price, because I know I'll probably never finish the bottle. I have so many inks that I'm unlikely to ever finish another bottle of ink.

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If ink is anything like cosmetics, it matters little cost wise whether they give you 10ml or 100ml. A nice glass bottle will cost more than the contents. The per ml discussion is a bit flawed in that regard. 

[Beechwood]

  On 4/2/2024 at 10:33 PM, RJS said:

If ink is anything like cosmetics, it matters little cost wise whether they give you 10ml or 100ml. A nice glass bottle will cost more than the contents. The per ml discussion is a bit flawed in that regard. 

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Perhaps you have hit upon an idea there, possibly for pen shows.  An ink seller turns up with a large container of a popular color with a small tap on it, buyers form a line holding their empty 50ml ink bottles to be refilled a dollar at a time.

[2ouvenir]

  On 4/2/2024 at 10:33 PM, RJS said:

If ink is anything like cosmetics, it matters little cost wise whether they give you 10ml or 100ml. A nice glass bottle will cost more than the contents. The per ml discussion is a bit flawed in that regard. 

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Consumers assess the value of a product based on its content as well as its packaging. Even if a bottle costs more than the ink inside, consumers still consider the price per ml because it helps them gauge the worth of the product relative to others on the market. Also, you can see big names like Sailor reducing their glass bottles to a design that makes them as inexpensive to make-store-transport as possible relative to the stuff inside.

[RJS]

  On 4/3/2024 at 2:55 AM, 2ouvenir said:

Consumers assess the value of a product based on its content as well as its packaging. Even if a bottle costs more than the ink inside, consumers still consider the price per ml because it helps them gauge the worth of the product relative to others on the market. Also, you can see big names like Sailor reducing their glass bottles to a design that makes them as inexpensive to make-store-transport as possible relative to the stuff inside.

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We do think about ml value, me included... I was just saying that the manufacturers don't need to be so tight with the quantities. The savings in using a smaller glass bottle or even transporting a lighter weight both probably save as much or more as cutting back on ink.

 

It's a pity when little bottles are badly designed as for those who don't want to muck around with syringes there's even more waste- percentage wise on a tiny bottle the amount that is just waste is higher, as you can't easily suck it up into a pen. After 50/60ml or so the quantity doesn't matter much to most of us, as we'll only finish the inks we love.

 

Edit: You mention Sailor and inexpensive in the same sentence. I presume you're buying inks in Japan (or China) but not elsewhere. There's a multiplier on their foreign prices- nearly as bad as Pilot who multiply their ink prices almost by 4x! They could still make more profit per unit abroad selling the big containers for the current little container prices, vs the profit made in Japan, but they market themselves as upmarket/luxury abroad, hence the high prices.

[arcfide]

Something to remember in the Japanese ink markets is that they have the whole "inkunuma" (sp?) phenomenon, where many (mostly) ladies are actively collecting and swatching varieties of ink with little intention to write with them using a fountain pen or even a dip pen. In these cases, pretty display of large quantities of ink bottles makes a difference, as well as reducing the cost per bottle/unit rather than per ml. I think this is a non-trivial reason for Platinum, Sailor, and Pilot to all make such small bottles for a wide range of their inks, because there is such a demand for small bottles that stack well on shelves. I happen to like Platinum's diamond shaped bottles for their stackability, even if they don't necessarily do much more than Sailor's square bottles for filling. 

[arcfide]

  On 4/3/2024 at 12:30 AM, Beechwood said:

An ink seller turns up with a large container of a popular color with a small tap on it, buyers form a line holding their empty 50ml ink bottles to be refilled a dollar at a time.

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Herbin did/does this at some places with their premium line, where you could get ink from the tap. Sailor's ink mixing booths also did/do this, where you can get custom colors mixed in real time for you sort of like a cocktail. That was part of the story of their Ink Studio line. 

[landonitron]

The most I've spent on an ink was Sailor Manyo Fuji which was 64 cents/mL, but that was at a brick & mortar store so it was more than I would have paid online and I really wanted to try one of their multi-shading inks. I have only bought three other inks for more than 50 cents/mL; Kyoto TAG. I have been gifted a bottle of Sailor Ink Studio which is 90 cents/mL but would never buy that for myself because of the cost per mL and the amount you can get out of it without a syringe or snorkel is miniscule.

Some of you guys are saying that price per mL doesn't actually matter all that much because of the likelihood of actually finishing a bottle but I'm determined to finish all my bottles! Even if it takes decades (which it probably will if it ever does happen). I do sell inks that I don't care for, but those are rare cases so my collection is always getting bigger.

[langere]

I have never thought of ink prices in a "per milliliter" way.  Instead, I tend to think of the whole bottle and how much it costs and whether I want that size/color/brand.  

 

I do think of per-unit costs when I buy groceries and other goods.  

 

In the end, I rarely use up a whole ink bottle - I have a bunch of Noodler's bottles from 15 years ago - so the price of the whole bottle matters more than the per-unit cost.

 

Erick

[AndyYNWA]

  On 4/4/2024 at 1:24 AM, langere said:

I have never thought of ink prices in a "per milliliter" way.  Instead, I tend to think of the whole bottle and how much it costs and whether I want that size/color/brand.  

 

I do think of per-unit costs when I buy groceries and other goods.  

 

In the end, I rarely use up a whole ink bottle - I have a bunch of Noodler's bottles from 15 years ago - so the price of the whole bottle matters more than the per-unit cost.

 

Erick

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Same here, never think of it as in price/ml. I look at what the bottle costs and decide from there. I will likely not use all ink in the bottle anyway.

 

My most expensive ink is probably either a Kobe Nagasawa or Bungubox ink, USD40/bottle.
 

[txomsy]

I consider this a flawed question.

 

It is not a matter of how much something costs. It is a matter of trade, cost/benefit. If the benefit you expect exceeds the cost and you can pay it, then the cost is worth it.

 

Setting a limit on cost/ml is denying yourself potential benefits blindly.

 

It would be a different question since, as the price/ml is trivial to calculate, one where to ask how to calculate the (possibly subjective) value of the benefit. I.e. what does one value most in an ink --that can trade off its price/ml.

[PithyProlix]

  On 4/4/2024 at 8:48 PM, txomsy said:

I consider this a flawed question.

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I think it's a good question. I am having difficulty thinking of an ink above, say, $0.50 USD per ml that offers benefits (if, admittedly, some of those benefits are subjective) that cannot be found - and fairly easily given the huge number of different inks currently available in the market - for less that that threshold. The one exception, which I mentioned earlier, Hakase Sepia, is the only one I am aware of made from actual cuttlefish ink, which is where sepia color traditionally comes from, and I haven't seen another that is a good match to its colors (there are two versions: light & dark). 

 

Are there any you have in mind? 

[arcfide]

  On 4/6/2024 at 5:00 AM, PithyProlix said:

Are there any you have in mind? 

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The scents in Jacques Herbin Les Encres Parfumees line are, IMO, unmatched by any other inks. Unlike other scented inks, which are very much lightly scented with rose waters or other things, the perfumes in Jacques Herbin's premium line are relatively complex, intense, and strong enough to actually last a good long while (too strong if you are sensitive to such things and have a broad, wet writing nib). They would be equally marketable as Eau de Toilette or even straight up cologne/perfume as inks. I don't think there's another set of inks that can give quite that type of experience. 

[antares1966]

  On 4/4/2024 at 8:48 PM, txomsy said:

I consider this a flawed question.

 

It is not a matter of how much something costs. It is a matter of trade, cost/benefit. If the benefit you expect exceeds the cost and you can pay it, then the cost is worth it.

 

Setting a limit on cost/ml is denying yourself potential benefits blindly.

 

It would be a different question since, as the price/ml is trivial to calculate, one where to ask how to calculate the (possibly subjective) value of the benefit. I.e. what does one value most in an ink --that can trade off its price/ml.

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I turned the question on its head when I was considering my ink selections--I don't go into a purchase with a specific price threshold in mind, but looking back at the inks I have purchased, in general those with a price point over 0.50 USD/ml don't brink anything to the table that interests me.  There are a handful of notable exceptions however, and that speaks to your point, "value" is largely subjective.

[RJS]

  On 4/6/2024 at 10:49 AM, arcfide said:

 

The scents in Jacques Herbin Les Encres Parfumees line are, IMO, unmatched by any other inks. Unlike other scented inks, which are very much lightly scented with rose waters or other things, the perfumes in Jacques Herbin's premium line are relatively complex, intense, and strong enough to actually last a good long while (too strong if you are sensitive to such things and have a broad, wet writing nib). They would be equally marketable as Eau de Toilette or even straight up cologne/perfume as inks. I don't think there's another set of inks that can give quite that type of experience. 

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That's interesting to hear. All the fragranced inks I've ever smelt were disgusting and distracting, thus far.

[inkstainedruth]

I like some scented inks but not others.  The J. Herbin and De Atramentis rose-scented ones are quite nice (and different colors from each other, one being more red and the other being more pink) -- and they really smell like what I expect roses to smell like (okay, not the R. foetidas ).  But the D'A Patchouli and Lavender scented ones were awful smelling, as was the J Herbin Lavender scented one -- they were all really sort of clearly chemically manufactured scents instead of "natural" ones.  And the Patchouli didn't smell ANYTHING like *real* patchouli does.

I'm also not sure how long the scent lasts on the paper for ANY of the scented inks, so if you're writing a love letter to someone, they may not get the effect that you got writing the letter in the first place.  So, it's kind of gimmicky, the way shimmer inks are (I've discovered that once the shimmer inks dry, the shimmer particles tend to have gone "Hasta la vista 'bye-bye'!"

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[txomsy]

Some people is more demanding than others to properties of inks. Some may derive value just from the fact an ink is expensive. Or a given brand. Some prefer to get the same brand as their pen out of fear or any other reason. Some like the bottle the ink comes in. Some would pay for luxuries they do not need (gold particles in the ink? An ink specially designed with a purpose?). Some may look just for the right hue of their preferred color and only find it in a given ink...

 

Or maybe they just don't care about the price or only prefer to buy the ink available at their closest B&M store out of laziness or comfort, or because they can try it, or they want to support their local business... or because it is vegan, or animal based, or synthetic.

 

There are many factors other people may value more than oneself. All of them may be valid. I don't discuss them, only point them out.

[PithyProlix]

  On 4/6/2024 at 10:49 AM, arcfide said:

 

The scents in Jacques Herbin Les Encres Parfumees line are, IMO, unmatched by any other inks. Unlike other scented inks, which are very much lightly scented with rose waters or other things, the perfumes in Jacques Herbin's premium line are relatively complex, intense, and strong enough to actually last a good long while (too strong if you are sensitive to such things and have a broad, wet writing nib). They would be equally marketable as Eau de Toilette or even straight up cologne/perfume as inks. I don't think there's another set of inks that can give quite that type of experience. 

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There are three colors I'd like to try. But ... I can get them in the country I live for $0.37 USD equivalent per ml, shipped. At $0.45 USD/ml, even the 10ml bottles don't exceed my personal threshold. 😉

 

My favorite ink maker, L'Artisan Pastellier, also does scented inks (and at a low cost/ml): https://artisanpastellier.com/produit/encre-parfumee/. Have you tried any? I haven't but I've been wanting to get a black from them so I think I their scented version will be on my next order. It is supposed to smell "du cirage, des meubles et des parquets nourris à la cire d’abeille" - of shoe polish and the bee's wax used to shine and maintain furniture and parquet floors. That might inspire some interesting writing!

 

I probably wouldn't hesitate to break my cost per ml threshold if someone made a walnut ink safe for fountain pens with the scent of Santa Maria Novella Tobacco Toscano cologne!

[PAKMAN]

I probably have 90 bottles of ink all told and really don't have a clue at this point how much money I have in my inks.  If I like an ink I will probably buy it regardless of cost (generally). If I were to set a number (not absolute) on how much I would pay for ink, I guess it would be around $30-40 per bottle.