Is there such a thing with Copperplate Calligraphy withouth all the out of hand flourishes?

[PhiloPlume]

Hi,

 

Sometimes it looks more like spiderwebs than actually words.  And hard to read.  People showing off maybe.

 

I have an idea why but am not going to say it <g>  Plenty of examples on the web.

 

Do the capital letters Z, J, V, G have to be so undecipherable (at least to me :-))? I know, it is a style with a history with rules.  But I do not want to enter a contest and be judged on how close my Copperplate is authentic.  Some letters are beautiful to me like the cover of Dick Jackson's Copperplate Calligraphy book.

 

I am practicing it with an offset/oblique pen and flexible nibs and love it and am starting to get the hang of it (it really is more like drawing than writing).  I could use lettering like this for a project or two for people's names and addresses and titles down the road.

 

Not addressing envelopes or wedding invitations, etc...  After watching videos with ladies addressing envelopes using Copperplate I had to look up how the Post Office is able to decipher the names and addresses, especially with the crazy flourishes all over the place making it like a plate of spaghetti (to me!).  Well, they use machines but often they get rejected and sent to actual people to figure them out 🙂

 

Well, there is some amusement for everyone here for the day hehe!

[Stompie]

  On 3/8/2024 at 5:55 PM, PhiloPlume said:

Hi,

 

Sometimes it looks more like spiderwebs than actually words.  And hard to read.  People showing off maybe.

 

I have an idea why but am not going to say it <g>  Plenty of examples on the web.

 

Do the capital letters Z, J, V, G have to be so undecipherable (at least to me :-))? I know, it is a style with a history with rules.  But I do not want to enter a contest and be judged on how close my Copperplate is authentic.  Some letters are beautiful to me like the cover of Dick Jackson's Copperplate Calligraphy book.

 

I am practicing it with an offset/oblique pen and flexible nibs and love it and am starting to get the hang of it (it really is more like drawing than writing).  I could use lettering like this for a project or two for people's names and addresses and titles down the road.

 

Not addressing envelopes or wedding invitations, etc...  After watching videos with ladies addressing envelopes using Copperplate I had to look up how the Post Office is able to decipher the names and addresses, especially with the crazy flourishes all over the place making it like a plate of spaghetti (to me!).  Well, they use machines but often they get rejected and sent to actual people to figure them out 🙂

 

Well, there is some amusement for everyone here for the day hehe!

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Have a wander through the IAMPETH website and you will find a lot of simple straightforward writing.

 

I do agree with you on certain aspects as in, the writing can get so fancy and full of thrills chills and frills that you have no idea what has been written! 

https://www.iampeth.com/

 

[PhiloPlume]

 

  On 3/11/2024 at 3:45 PM, Stompie said:

https://www.iampeth.com/

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I joined!  Not sure why or what I will learn there.  I don't see many posts in their forum or much else there. 

[Stompie]

Go to the Resources. There you will be able to go to the YouTube channel for courses, instructions etc.

The Rare books gives you many fine examples of good writing.

Documents gives you access to guidelines of many types.

You could also look up Calligraphy Masters on youtube or Instagram where they interview a number of great and proficient calligraphers 

 

All of these links also give you names of people in the calligraphy field and you can then look those folk up on the internet and a lot of them have their own websites that are full of interesting things.

[txomsy]

Yeah, most books of Copperplate will show you a plain hand for everyday use, plus some flourishes in case you like them. But in general, it does not need that many flourishes unless it is for showing off.

[PhiloPlume]

  On 3/12/2024 at 4:14 PM, txomsy said:

most books of Copperplate will show you a plain hand for everyday use, plus some flourishes in case you like them. But in general, it does not need that many flourishes unless it is for showing off.

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I don't think I have any books that teach Copperplate and also show a plain copperplate hand.  I will look them through again.  I absolutely the lowercase and capital Ps as they look like Hs to me because they are left open and really can't stand the Zs either.  They don't look like a Z.  And here are a couple more 🙂

 

Yes- showing off and out of control for sure! I don't think I would want my wedding or daughters wedding invitations and announcements or mailings looking like that.  But maybe that is just me.

Edited March 13, 2024 by PhiloPlume

[PhiloPlume]

  On 3/12/2024 at 7:33 AM, Stompie said:

Go to the Resources. There you will be able to go to the YouTube channel for courses, instructions etc.

The Rare books gives you many fine examples of good writing.

Documents gives you access to guidelines of many types.

You could also look up Calligraphy Masters on youtube or Instagram where they interview a number of great and proficient calligraphers 

 

All of these links also give you names of people in the calligraphy field and you can then look those folk up on the internet and a lot of them have their own websites that are full of interesting things.

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Will do Stompie.  I discovered the guidelines and downloaded them and printed some out.  I don't think I can use any now for what I am trying to do (which is 1:1, but I probably do not know how to use them yet.  Going to draw my own.).  And I will look around.  I've been to the Calligraphy's Masters website.  I will look around IAMPETH's a little more.

 

Thank you!

[PhiloPlume]

 

  On 3/12/2024 at 4:14 PM, txomsy said:

Yeah, most books of Copperplate will show you a plain hand for everyday use, plus some flourishes in case you like them. But in general, it does not need that many flourishes unless it is for showing off.

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I keep thinking that there must be some type of "formal" alternative to Copperplate Calligraphy where the letters are more decipherable and with less flourishes (I know, I don't have to go crazy with flourishes as most people do) but I have searched and searched.

 

Presently, I am just trying to write student's names on certificates that look elegant but still can be read by the students and parents 🙂  The type size is not real big.  Not with a broad-edge or italic (Roman or Gothic like)

 

I have found various threads here in the FPN like "How to learn Italic", "How to learn Copperplate", and others but the posts are at least 10 years old or more and the links to examples and photos no longer exist.

 

Oh well! I will keep plugging away.

Edited March 13, 2024 by PhiloPlume
Forgot something! :-)

[txomsy]

I find "Copperplate Calligraphy" by Dick Jackson not to be too flourished, and neither do I find "Calligraphy in the Copperplate Style" by Kaufman & Homelsky excessively flourished, certainly not enough to be unreadable or easily simplified.

 

"Italic & Copperplate Calligraphy" by Eleanor Winters certainly tends a bit to the flourishing side in the Copperplate parts, but shows some alternatives and one can always combine simpler capitals from the italic style with capitals minuscules from Copperplate tastefully. And if one just removes the initial opening flourish loop in most capitals, the resulting capitals are fairly simple and readable ones.

 

And as for the handwriting forums... nothing precludes you from opening new threads, and they will surely be promptly answered, like this one.

[PhiloPlume]

  On 3/14/2024 at 8:24 PM, txomsy said:

I find "Copperplate Calligraphy" by Dick Jackson not to be too flourished, and neither do I find "Calligraphy in the Copperplate Style" by Kaufman & Homelsky excessively flourished, certainly not enough to be unreadable or easily simplified.

 

"Italic & Copperplate Calligraphy" by Eleanor Winters certainly tends a bit to the flourishing side in the Copperplate parts, but shows some alternatives and one can always combine simpler capitals from the italic style with capitals minuscules from Copperplate tastefully. And if one just removes the initial opening flourish loop in most capitals, the resulting capitals are fairly simple and readable ones.

 

And as for the handwriting forums... nothing precludes you from opening new threads, and they will surely be promptly answered, like this one.

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Thanks!  I have Dick Jackson's book.  So nice to find handwriting and penmanship books and lessons from a man!

 

I just ordered "Calligraphy in the Copperplate Style" from Abebooks for $5.54 free shipping.  Looking forward to seeing how marked up it is ans it is used.  Might find some good notes!

 

>And as for the handwriting forums... nothing precludes you from opening new threads, and they will surely be promptly answered, like this one.<

 

True. I will look for those forums.   I did get an answer to a post in the italic handwriting one.

 

[PhiloPlume]

  On 3/14/2024 at 8:24 PM, txomsy said:

And if one just removes the initial opening flourish loop in most capitals, the resulting capitals are fairly simple and readable ones.

 

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I have begun to find alternatives that I like much better than the traditional Copperplate ones.  And, like you said, I can remove some flourishes.  Also come up with my own.  It is not like I am trying to get certified as a master Copperplate man.  I don't need to be a sheep. <g>

[PhiloPlume]

Found this on a web page!  No frills, no extreme flourishes, just Calligraphy (I suppose).

 

This is the alternative to Copperplate (which seems to dominate everything these days and I do want to eventually learn it) that I am interested in learning but have yet to find how to learn it.

 

But not the beginning of every word capitalized, or course.

[txomsy]

See, it is trivial, actually.

 

With any book on Copperplate, learn the basic strokes (which basically boils down to press firmer on the way down and lighter on the way up), and then, start practicing the minuscules. As you get the hang of using the pen, then switch your examples to this script.

 

Note that there are two "hands": the calligraphic hand is intended for making it look beautiful, is written slowly and dividing each letter carefully into component strokes, and the running hand intended for normal writing, where you get everything written in a continuous, connected flow, with less care for absolute perfection. Although generally one leads to the other naturally.

 

Other than that, you may instead try a Palmer method booklet for business writing. Or any of the many alternative variants available in old copy books, many of them downloadable through pennavolans.com links. As the later are free, you may download several and see which hand looks the most as what you want to achieve. Most of them were intended for quick business writing, but you will also find manuals for flourishing.

 

Sykes' Manual of Penmanship, for instance, teaches a hand with several examples simple capitals, some like the ones you show.

 

[PhiloPlume]

  On 3/18/2024 at 6:51 PM, txomsy said:

Other than that, you may instead try a Palmer method booklet for business writing. Or any of the many alternative variants available in old copy books, many of them downloadable through pennavolans.com links. As the later are free, you may download several and see which hand looks the most as what you want to achieve. Most of them were intended for quick business writing, but you will also find manuals for flourishing.

 

Sykes' Manual of Penmanship, for instance, teaches a hand with several examples simple capitals, some like the ones you show.

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Thank you!

 

I have looked at the Palmer method a little but am not that familiar with it.  Never heard of Sykes before.

 

And the website looks fantastic!  Will do!!

 

Found a used copy of "The Palmer Method of Business Writing" at abebooks and like the description (partial below):

 

"This vintage text contains a comprehensive guide to the 'Palmer' method of business writing, being a series of self-teaching lessons in rapid, plain, unshaded, coarse-pen writing. 'The Palmer Method' was developed by Austin Palmer in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. It was primarily designed to be a simplified version of the 'Spencerian Method', the major standardized system of handwriting since the mid-nineteenth century, and quickly became the most popular handwriting system in America. This text will appeal to those with a keen interest in the history and development of penmanship, and it is a book not to be missed by the "

 

Edited March 18, 2024 by PhiloPlume
added something

[PhiloPlume]

I just discovered Spencerian Calligraphy on a website.  Oh boy.  Not going to clip and paste anything else because I don't know if that is really allowed.  I had trouble deciphering about half the alphabet, especially the capital letters 🙂

[PhiloPlume]

Last point here from me:

 

I just looked up White House Calligraphy.  If it is Copperplate, there are absolutely no flourishes on anything that I say.  Just beautiful writing.  Perhaps it is Spencerian without the flourishes.  Got me.

 

When I am ready to devote my free time to learn another style, it would be like this.

[Stompie]

 

Watch how this chap taught himself a fancy script! 

[PhiloPlume]

  On 3/20/2024 at 7:59 AM, Stompie said:

Watch how this chap taught himself a fancy script! 

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I think that is basically what I will end up doing once I get the moves down with the upper and lowercase letters with the pointed pen.  There is no reason I can't do that.  I am not trying to get certified in Copperplate or anything else or trying to start a business doing wedding invitations and envelopes.

 

I haven't watched the video yet but will in a little while.  I bet it's great! 

 

But I am going to mostly concentrate on Italic right now.

[PhiloPlume]

  On 3/20/2024 at 7:59 AM, Stompie said:

Watch how this chap taught himself a fancy script! 

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This guy is an American Patriot.  I almost had tears in my eyes watching and listening to him and the music that he selected.

 

Also, he thinks a bit like me as far as his take on writing too.  I have been basically doing what he is doing now, for a little while.  He gives me hope.  And his remark about girly writing and boy writing is what I have been pointing out here! It is so true!  Girls writing is round (and bouncy imo).  It shows in how they have taken over Copperplate, Modern Calligraphy, Brush Pen Lettering, etc...  I cracked up when he said that and also his thought is exactly mine about the flourishes with small letters!  I thought for a long time that I was alone in thinking this.

 

I am addicted to this guy!

 

I have no idea how you found this Stompie, but I am grateful that you did and letting me know about it.  Thank you very much!  Gives me inspiration.  And so does dms525!

 

Except, I am not going to loop the letters and enclose them <g>  My handwriting has been based on Getty-Dubay for a while now. With a little Barbara Nicol, Michael Sull, John Longcraft-Neal, etc... hehe

 

There is not enough time in the day now! Well, it has been that way for most of my recent adult life 🙂

 

-paul

[Stompie]

😂😂🤣 welcome to my world, and the world of thousands of fountain pen people!