Ink aficionados, please explain something to me

[WRBNYC]

My understanding is that fountain pen inks are either dye-based or pigment-based. Pigment inks are generally water-resistant if not waterproof; dye-based inks, generally speaking, are easily washed away by water (exceptions being iron gall and Noodlers inks, which afaik are dye-based but contain chemical additives of one kind or another which bind with or eat into the paper, rendering your writing water resistant even if some of the dye washes away). Dye-based inks are generally easy to manage; pigment inks and chemically-augmented dye-based inks have, to a greater or lesser degree, liabilities which make them trickier or riskier to use than standard dye-based inks (e.g. Bay State Blue somehow dissolved some of the plastic in a Kaweco slide-converter over the course of a year; KWZ IG Blue #1 completely gummed up the feed of a Lamy Safari when I left it in a drawer unused for a month; etc.). 

 

But I have learned through experimentation that if you add a small amount of a waterproof ink to a larger amount of dye-based ink, 4 times out of 5 the mixture will have enough water resistance for most practical purposes (i.e. it will preserve your writing if your notebook gets hit with a spilled drink, but I suppose you wouldn't want to use it for whatever it is artists do with fountain pens + watercolor paints and so forth) and also be less prone to generate the problems associated with the original waterproof ink. The obvious drawbacks to this approach are that ~20% of the time (ymmv) you get some kind of chemical reaction that wrecks the ink or even the pen, and that mixing inks makes refilling your pen a somewhat messier and more time consuming process than it would be otherwise. 

 

So why don't manufacturers just add a little bit of pigment to dye-based inks to make them more permanent? And why do so many pigment inks have to be so densely pigmented that they create clogging/hard start problems (e.g. R&K Lilly is a neat color, but in my experience it's basically unusable unless you want to constantly prime the feed and rinse the nib every other day -- by contrast, 50% R&K Lilly + 50% J. Herbin Lie de The works just fine as an everyday drawing/writing ink)? The either/or approach seems completely counterintuitive to me. 

 

Or am I completely mistaken about some/all of the above (which tbc is entirely possible 💁‍♂️)?

[LizEF]

43 minutes ago, WRBNYC said:

My understanding is...

I would classify inks as:

1. Dye based
2. Pigmented
3. Iron gall
4. Baystate (these three inks really should be considered separate beasts)
5. Begrudging Noodler's exception, but I think even though he claims they're not pigmented, they're functionally pigmented.  At least, under a microscope, they look the same as pigmented inks.

Alternately, you could make up other classifications:

• Water-resistant / waterproof / non-water-resistant
• Staining / non-staining (I believe that an ink doesn't have to be "permanent" to stain"
• Erasable / not erasable (either by "ink eraser" or heat)
• Fading / non-fading (this may actually relate to staining / non-staining)

47 minutes ago, WRBNYC said:

But I have learned through experimentation...

OK.  Depending on the pigmented ink you used, it may have added more pigment than you think (e.g. Noodler's inks are very concentrated).  Or perhaps it just doesn't take much pigment to stain the paper.

 

48 minutes ago, WRBNYC said:

...and also be less prone to generate the problems associated with the original waterproof ink

Not surprising.  You're reducing the concentration of troublemakers.  Dispersing the mob, so to speak.

 

49 minutes ago, WRBNYC said:

So why don't manufacturers just add a little bit of pigment to dye-based inks to make them more permanent?

Can't answer for them.  Perceived market response, I suppose.

 

49 minutes ago, WRBNYC said:

And why do so many pigment inks have to be so densely pigmented that they create clogging/hard start problems

Presumably to appeal to those who want serious pigmentation...

 

50 minutes ago, WRBNYC said:

Or am I completely mistaken about some/all of the above (which tbc is entirely possible 💁‍♂️)?

You seem right to me.  Your success rate is surely not satisfactory for a profit-making enterprise.  There may be long-term stability issues that prevent the mixing of dye and pigment.  Or it may just be a blind spot (we always make either this or that, never half & half!).  I dunno.  If it doesn't suffer from long-term stability issues, I imagine someone will do it eventually - we seem to be riding a rising ink-tide.

[lapis]

The above post from Liz is worth gold... but...check out as well....

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/302053-a-newbies-guide-to-inks-part-iii/... including links to Parts I and II....

[Prof Drew]

Thanks for the interesting link @lapis. Very helpful.

[OCArt]

Not to add complexity to your taxonomy, but aren't there also cellulose reactive inks or do they also contain pigments?

 

2 hours ago, LizEF said:

would classify inks as:

1. Dye based
2. Pigmented
3. Iron gall
4. Baystate (these three inks really should be considered separate beasts)
5. Begrudging Noodler's exception, but I think even though he claims they're not pigmented, they're functionally pigmented.  At least, under a microscope, they look the same as pigmented inks.

 

[LizEF]

15 minutes ago, OCArt said:

Not to add complexity to your taxonomy, but aren't there also cellulose reactive inks or do they also contain pigments?

Well, I'm no scientist, so I can't tell you the overlap¹.  All I know is that the Noodler's inks that are permanent that I've put on slides, show the exact characteristics of pigmented inks from other brands...

 

¹And I'm too lazy and busy to go research - a kind FP user has shipped me an insane number of ink samples - there must be around a hundred here!  (Not all new to me, but still!)  I has inventorying to do.

[OCArt]

Yay, we'll have more of your great reviews to look forward to! Thanks for doing all the inky research, I do appreciate it very much.

1 hour ago, LizEF said:

And I'm too lazy and busy to go research - a kind FP user has shipped me an insane number of ink samples - there must be around a hundred here!  (Not all new to me, but still!)  I has inventorying to do.

 

 

[LizEF]

2 minutes ago, OCArt said:

Yay, we'll have more of your great reviews to look forward to! Thanks for doing all the inky research, I do appreciate it very much.

You're very welcome.

[arcfide]

No matter how little pigment you put in an ink, the moment you make an ink pigmented, you increase the maintenance burden and potential problems with clogging in the pen over time. I suspect that it's hard to justify specifically making an ink which has all the potential problems of a pigmented ink, without the associated benefits of complete or near complete water resistance and fade resistance; I think it's probably one of those "all or nothing" situations. 

 

Iron Gall ink is technically what you describe, in that while the Iron Gall at least begins as a complete solution, over time the iron gall will precipitate at least a little, and so functionally, iron gall inks are "very very slightly pigmented" the moment you start using them, and the way that they work is to essentially turn into a pigmented ink on the page. 

 

For most people, if they are okay with only a tiny bit of water resistance, they will find more saturated dye-based inks or go with iron gall inks, assuming that they don't want to deal with pigmented inks. The problem with trying to convince such people that they should use a newly developed pigment ink is that they would have to be willing to risk their pens drying out, and if they are okay with that, who else will buy such an ink? People who want to use pigmented inks often want the much increased water resistance and "brushability" that comes with them. You just won't get that with your diluted versions. 

[InesF]

13 hours ago, WRBNYC said:

So why don't manufacturers just add a little bit of pigment to dye-based inks to make them more permanent?

Answer, part 1, thank you, @arcfide:

4 hours ago, arcfide said:

No matter how little pigment you put in an ink, the moment you make an ink pigmented, you increase the maintenance burden and potential problems with clogging in the pen over time.

 

Answer, part 2:

Because not every ink should be waterproof or permanent! Think about school kids that a) do not care so much for their pens (cleaning, let them dry out, etc.), b) sometimes spill ink over their clothes and c) like to "erase" mistakes they did on paper.

 

However, not all fountain pen inks are thought to be used by kids only. And not all uses (writings) require to be permanent or waterproof. Fountain pens with not tight caps are the worst choice for use with permanent inks - disaster ahead!

I'm happy about the giant variety of inks which are neither permanent nor document type nor waterproof! 👍

[arcfide]

I find it interesting that Pelikan actually highlights the value of their Royal Blue ink when it comes to maintenance:

 

Quote

 

INK 4001 ROYAL BLUE

Cleaning fountain pens that are used every day
If you use your fountain pen every day, it is quite sufficient to rinse it once a year under lukewarm, running water (avoid using additives). To do this, draw up some water through the nib by twisting the knob of the piston filling mechanism to the right, and then release the water again by turning the knob in the other direction.

 

Cleaning fountain pens that are used irregularly
If you use your fountain pen only once in a while, please try to clean it every six months. Otherwise, please empty the ink reservoir and rinse it with cold or lukewarm water.

In case of irregular use, we recommend filling the fountain pen only halfway. If you have not used the fountain pen for a long time, please make sure to clean it before using it again.

COLORED INKS (except for Royal Blue)

Colored ink contains a higher amount of pigments than only blue ink. So, in case you are using colored inks, your fountain pen will need to be cleaned more often.

SPECIAL INKS/INK

Due to its characteristics, this special ink is also called “India® ink for fountain pens”. Among other things, it contains a higher ratio of soot, which settles in the fine capillaries of the ink regulator. Leaving the pen open, without putting the cap back on when you are finished writing, will anticipate the process. What happens is that the watery carrier fluid evaporates much faster and the solids, e.g., the soot, sediment in the fountain pen. Consequently, the ink becomes thicker and gathers in the capillary grooves of the ink regulator and the fine capillaries of the piston filling mechanism. To make a long story short: it will stop up your fountain pen. Therefore, if you only need your fountain pen every once in a while, we recommend you to only partly fill up the ink reservoir and best rinse it under lukewarm water every 3 to 5 months (leaving away additives).

 

 

Waterman likewise emphasizes that they use water soluble dyes and so it's easy to wash the pens with just water, as does Lamy. Lamy even makes a note of the value of a piston filled pen washing itself by using fresh ink regularly. Compare this to the two biggest pen makers who make pigmented inks, Platinum and Sailor, who both sell ink cleaning kits and recommend cleaning pens every month. Platinum actually has a particular cleaning solution that they claim helps to thoroughly clean the pens (Platinum's standard ink is Iron Gall). 

 

 

 

[txomsy]

I agree, not all users have the same requirements, so there are reasons to have every kind of ink.

 

And many more still to (hopefully) come.

[Chris1]

Just to add to the mix, we have pen manufacturers that buy ink from someone else to sell under their own name (e.g. Cross), pen manufacturers that have their own inks manufactured for them (e.g. Montblanc), specialist ink manufacturers (an increasing number, for which we should be grateful, even if it means we buy a lot more ink that we can ever use! e.g. Noodlers, Diamine and a host of others whose names I always forget) and 'old school' ink manufactuers that simply 'make ink' as they always did, but perhaps don't give it too much attention other than to bottle it and sell (and I apologise if any ink manufacturer feels I'v offended them 😉 but what I mean is that having settled on a formula, they don't see a great need to expand their range or alter what works).

 

 

[Karmachanic]

On 3/4/2024 at 6:35 PM, WRBNYC said:

KWZ IG Blue #1 completely gummed up the feed of a Lamy Safari when I left it in a drawer unused for a month

 

Likely the fault of the pen not the ink. Cap not providing a full seal.

 

2 hours ago, Chris1 said:

Diamine

 

Old School since 1864.

[Chris1]

He he! 1864! Not quite as new as I thought then.

 

That's why I like this place - always something new to learn.