FrankenSouv? Help please

[Sailor Kenshin]

Here's a small Pelikan I bought, but it was a while ago, and I don't remember from where.  

 

I just inked it this week and something puzzles me.  I read that all Souveran have gold nibs and though this is a fantastic writer, a true EF, there's no mark on the nib to indicate gold.  Can anyone ID this pen?  Could it be a copy?  Thanks to anyone who can shed light on it.

 

 

 

 

Here's the nib.

 

[Penguincollector]

  That looks like an old style gold plated nib. I have one on my 140, I paid very little for it because the nib was changed and the plating worn off, but I really like that nib. I think they are stock 120 nibs, but I am not a Pelikan expert.

 

 

[Sailor Kenshin]

@Penguincollector, thanks.  It's a really nice nib, too.

[Penguincollector]

4 hours ago, Sailor Kenshin said:

@Penguincollector, thanks.  It's a really nice nib, too.

  You’re so welcome! Now I’m looking up 120s, the madness is never ending.

[Sailor Kenshin]

The 'all Souverans have gold nibs' confused me.  Do they or don't they?

[jungkind]

Yes, all Souverans have gold nibs. Nibs can easily changed between pens, so someone has put a steel nib into a Souveran. ... or (you do not show the pen body) you have a Non-Souveran pen body with a Souveran cap

[Sailor Kenshin]

11 minutes ago, jungkind said:

Yes, all Souverans have gold nibs. Nibs can easily changed between pens, so someone has put a steel nib into a Souveran. ... or (you do not show the pen body) you have a Non-Souveran pen body with a Souveran cap

 

That is entirely possible; thanks for your comment.  What telltale signs would I look for in the pen's body?

[DougS]

2 hours ago, Sailor Kenshin said:

 

That is entirely possible; thanks for your comment.  What telltale signs would I look for in the pen's body?

A mold seam in the plastic running down the grip below the threads.

Well, two actually, opposite sides. The Souveran grip section is diamond turned and very smooth.

[Sailor Kenshin]

13 hours ago, DougS said:

A mold seam in the plastic running down the grip below the threads.

Well, two actually, opposite sides. The Souveran grip section is diamond turned and very smooth.

 

I can't detect seams!  Curiouser and curioser.  Thanks.

[Penguincollector]

  Could I see the whole pen? Maybe with another pen as a size reference? This is intriguing. 

[Sailor Kenshin]

11 minutes ago, Penguincollector said:

  Could I see the whole pen? Maybe with another pen as a size reference? This is intriguing. 

 

Possibly later today.  I'll see what I have for comparison.

[Penguincollector]

  Cool, I’ll grab a deerstalker hat and a pipe. 🕵🏻‍♀️

[Sailor Kenshin]

 

The Quick and the Dirty.  Not the best pic, but my phone, well.  Excuse.  

 

My 'Souveran' is on the left.  The Pelikan on the right is something I bought off fleabay years ago, because of its tipped italic nib.  I don't recall how it was advertised (Mxx or what) or what I paid.  The italic pen does not read 'Souveran,' and has a visible and feelable section seam.

 

Souveran has neither.

 

 

 

Both write so well it makes me want another Pelikan.

[AceNinja]

On 3/3/2024 at 8:06 AM, Sailor Kenshin said:

The 'all Souverans have gold nibs' confused me.  Do they or don't they?

Yes all souverans have gold nibs, that part is correct i think.  But, pelikan's nib is very easily interchangeable between models.  For eg, a M200's steel nib can be easily put into a M400 body.

And in your first photo, it's clearly a M200's steel nib, old style (due to got 2 small chicks).

 

 

6 hours ago, Sailor Kenshin said:

 

 

The cap on the left is a M400's cap, the right's is a M200's cap.

 

can you take a photo with the cap removed?  because the piston knob also offers tale tale signs of the model.

For eg, for modern pelikan, M200 has 1 trim ring at piston knob, while M400 has 2 trim ring.

 

Also another clue (to roughly determine which era) is show picture of the cap's finial, to see how many chicks on the pelikan logo.

 

visit here to find comparison to your pen.  https://www.pelikan-collectibles.com/en/Pelikan/Models/Classic-Series/M200-Basis/index.html

 

[Sailor Kenshin]

@AceNinja, Thanks!  It appears to be a FrankenPel, with a Souveran cap and M200 nib (and everything else).

 

My red striped Souveran has the two trim rings on its piston.  This little black number does not.  It has only one chick on the cap finial.  Again, thanks so much!  I'm learning, I'm learning.

[Mercian]

On 3/3/2024 at 6:25 PM, Sailor Kenshin said:

 

The Quick and the Dirty.  Not the best pic, but my phone, well.  Excuse.  

 

My 'Souveran' is on the left.  The Pelikan on the right is something I bought off fleabay years ago, because of its tipped italic nib.  I don't recall how it was advertised (Mxx or what) or what I paid.  The italic pen does not read 'Souveran,' and has a visible and feelable section seam.

 

Souveran has neither.

 

 

 

Both write so well it makes me want another Pelikan.

Even more confusingly…

 

Nowadays, that green ink-window is only fitted to Souverän pens. In this size, it would be an M400.

 

The ‘white’/transparent ink window is fitted to non-Souverän models - M200, M205, etc.

 

BUT: Pelikan used to put that green ink window into its M250 model:

https://www.pelikan-collectibles.com/en/Pelikan/Models/Classic-Series/M200-Basis/index.html#heading_toc_j_6

 

Early examples of those were made with the same monotone 14k nibs that were fitted to the early M400s.

But of course the nib units on the M2xx and M4xx and the 1950s-60s 400-series pens are all easily interchangeable, and so are their caps.
As such, one can end up with an M2xx with the cap/nib from an M4xx or a 400-series, or an M4xx or 400-series that has had the cap/nib from an M2xx put on to it.
Then one has to allow for all the variations in nib grind/logo/decoration over the years… 😁

[Sailor Kenshin]

Thanks, @Mercian, for this interesting addition to my FrankenSouv thread. 

[Mercian]

One thing I forgot to add:

Souverän pens have a trim ring around the nib collar - gold-plated for M400, palladium-plated for M405.

The 400 series pens from the 1950s-60s have no such trim rings, and nor do M2xx pens.

 

To me, it appears that your ‘Souverän’ is a genuine modern M200 with the correct nib, but one on which the cap from an M400 has accidentally ended up.

 

Your older black pen with the green ink window appears to be a genuine M250.

If you could add a close-up photo of your older pen’s nib, that would help us to determine whether it has the nib from an M250, one from an M200, or one from an M400, or one from a vintage Pelikan 400.

 

Slàinte,
M.

[Sailor Kenshin]

@Mercian, I can try for a nib photo.  But my close-up equipment is nil, and the shine of the nib often obscures what's on it.

[Mercian]

13 minutes ago, Sailor Kenshin said:

@Mercian, I can try for a nib photo.  But my close-up equipment is nil, and the shine of the nib often obscures what's on it.

The way that you photographed the nib in the first post of this thread is more-than-good-enough 

 

Edit to add:

Alternatively, if you put your ‘M250’ on that carpet, and roll it so that the nib is angled towards you, and away from the light-source, you should be able to use the ‘zoom’ function on your phone to get a photo of it without any glare on the nib, and which shows enough detail for us to determine what type of nib unit the pen has in it.

 

And, if you find that you are having any difficulty getting a ‘good’ photo, you should be able to match the nib on your pen to one of the ones shown on:

https://www.pelikan-collectibles.com/en/Pelikan/Nibs/Nib-units-since-1929/index.html

🙂