Rhodia dotPad 80gsm paper: performance characteristics not identical on both sides

[A Smug Dill]

‘Inspired’, or triggered, by this post on Reddit:

 

I went and tested one of the Rhodia dotPad No.16 spiral-bound notepads I acquired late last year, sold and shipped by Amazon Germany (as opposed to a staple-bound notepad from what remains of what I ordered from Cult Pens and not-defunct La Couronne du Comte since 2020), that was part of a five-pack of such.

 

 

 

 

I'm satisfied that there are noticeable, if quite minor, differences between the recto and verso sides. I conclude, or conjecture, that the recto side is more heavily sized, making it more resistant to absorption of water-based ink, and resulting in:

• slightly finer and crisper lines of ink on the page
• a slightly smoother writing experience with less kinaesthetic feedback

that cannot be attributed to differences in the physical position on the page on which the writing is (as I have less precise control, towards the right-hand edge of the page, when the heel of my writing hand is not resting on (top of a paper towel cover) the page itself.

 

I'll also note that the paper in these spiral-bound (at the top edge, in portrait orientation) dotPad notepads seems to have more in common with pre-2020 staple-bound dotPad notepads I bought from Amazon Australia back in 2019, than what I received from European vendors between 2020 and 2022. I don't have enough data to sensibly conclude whether the differences are due the vendor, region, period of production, binding format, etc.

 

Last, but not least: this redditor claimed, 

Quote

Recto: smoother Verso rougher. On both sides the ink line looks jagged under the magnifier.

I had drawn the attention on FPN long ago. Nobody seemed interested.

 

I can't find that thread with a Google search, but I'd be happy to link back to it here and give credit where it's due, if he/she/someone can point me to that (thanks!).

 

-----

Edited to add:

 

The fellow redditor — who is @nibtip (formerly @inkking ?) here — pointed out to me that this post was his effort to draw the attention long ago to the matter:

 

I'll note that @Thymen agreed with his observation, five replies down on the same page.

Edited January 28, 2024 by A Smug Dill

[Particular_Song3539]

Thank you for the experiment and report. 
it was such an interesting found. I will dig up my Rhodia staple bound pad and try this next week !
PS you might have ink-able me a few new inks ! 

[Lithium466]

Thank you @A Smug Dill for your report, very informative.
 

Since you noticed (and reported) a difference with the Exacompta FAF paper (several months ago I think), I started checking all my papers on both sides, and using my preferred one when possible.

[arcfide]

This is what I thought was a well known part of paper making. It's almost impossible to make both sides of the page behave identically, especially if you're watching for it. I haven't found a single paper that can manage to do it perfectly. Some are better than others. Even some of the best Japanese papers exhibit this property if you know what to look for. 

 

The makers of Graphilo paper actually highlight(ed) this in their marketing materials for the paper, saying that they spent extra attention in trying to make the recto and verso sides as close to each other as possible in how they handle fountain pen ink. They've done as good a job as anyone at this, but it's impossible not to be able to see differences over time and sufficient samples of paper. 

 

I have noticed this as well with Midori MD, Optik, Tomoe River, Clairefontaine, G. Lalo, Apica (both styles), Tsubame, LIFE, Masuya, and Kokuyo papers, all to greater or lesser degrees. 

[A Smug Dill]

27 minutes ago, arcfide said:

This is what I thought was a well known part of paper making. It's almost impossible to make both sides of the page behave identically, especially if you're watching for it. I haven't found a single paper that can manage to do it perfectly.

 

I certainly remember reams of photocopier/printer paper on which the supplier would tersely advise users to print on one particular side ‘first’, presumably because it was known that the performance of both sides are not equal, and that one side would deliver better printing results. But I always thought of that as an undesirable fact and a manufacturing shortcoming, such that the paper producers would want to cover their butts and/or make their products appear to be of better quality, by steering to reduce the incidence of poorer performance being exposed. But then, more and more, I see that class of products advertised as amenable to being used on both sides, presumably with equal performance.

 

I have never come across a notebook or notepad product that expressly or tacitly communicates to customers and users that unequal performance between the recto and verso sides of each sheet is to be expected. One could argue that in notepads that are bound at the top edge, and unambiguously having a front cover that is distinguishable from the back or bottom of the product — as is the case for spiral-bound and staple-bound Rhodia dotPads — it is implicit that users would be expected to use the recto side first for each sheet; but I don't think that means users should therefore expect the performance of the verso side to be different.

 

Especially when sizing has a lot to do with how a page would handle ink, I guess I can't imagine why the sizing on both sides of the sheet would not be equal, even if the process of pressing the paper in the first place makes it almost impossible for the texture and/or fibre alignment to be identical on both sides before sizing is applied.

[Karmachanic]

56 minutes ago, arcfide said:

This is what I thought was a well known part of paper making.

 

+1

 

It is my understanding that sizing is in the slurry for writing/copy paper/newsprint.  They will absorb ink to some degree dependent upon end usage.  Coated/glossy paper no so much; brochures/magazines.

[LizEF]

Well, now I'm going to have to start marking which side is front or back to see if there's any correlation to my dry time issues.  It'll take a zillion inks before there's enough data to draw any conclusions, but then, I have enough inks to last well into next year, so it shouldn't be a problem, we just have to be patient.

[arcfide]

2 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

I have never come across a notebook or notepad product that expressly or tacitly communicates to customers and users that unequal performance between the recto and verso sides of each sheet is to be expected.

 

The easiest "example" for this would be the Exacompta gilded Journals made with 100g G. Lalo laid paper. In such paper, it is expressly designed with a very distinct recto/verso difference. Some people have even complained that the G. Lalo stationery pads come with the "rough side" up, which some people didn't like, because they got better results on the smoother side. Of course, that's low hanging fruit because of laid paper and also because G. Lalo is so exceptionally dry of a paper in writing that the difference between the rough and smooth sides is even stronger. 

 

However, with the Tsubame and LIFE laid papers, even though the laid pattern is much more subdued than the Crown Mills or G. Lalo varieties, you can still detect a distinct difference in these papers "by design" because of the laid pattern if you pay close enough attention. 

 

Outside of laid paper, I don't think any paper maker I know of brings much attention to that fact, as it's not a great marketing gimmick. However, makers like Graphilo do make a marketing claim about the absence of much difference between either side, which is some sort of proof contrapositive or something like it. 

 

Other than just the recto/verso sizing issues (depending on how the paper is sized and the order of operations), you can also have some effect based on the printing. For whatever reason, I think that the printing process can create different effects on either side of a page with some makers, as I've noticed that sometimes the printing process itself imparts a distinct feel to the page. I forget which notebooks I have observed this one, but I definitely recall being surprised by the difference in the feel of the paper based purely on which side had the printing on it, even though the notebook itself would have had printing on the recto and verso sides depending on which page in the notebook you had. 

[arcfide]

For those who are interested, here is what Graphilo says about their work:

 

Quote

表裏差の軽減
紙にはかならず表裏の差が出ます。
その差によっては同じものでも書き味が大きく異なる紙もありますが、〈GRAPHILO〉は表裏の差を抑えることにも気を配りました。

 

Taken from GRAPHILO（グラフィーロ） ペーパー A4 - 神戸派商店 (fromkobe.jp)

 

Which roughly translates, using Google Translate, into this:

 

Quote

Reduction of difference between front and back
There is always a difference between the front and back of paper.
Depending on this difference, the same paper can have a very different writing feel, but with GRAPHILO, we have also taken care to suppress the difference between the front and back sides.

 

[Zdenek]

This difference of properties on two sides of paper is known as two-sidedness.

[Karmachanic]

21 minutes ago, Zdenek said:

This difference of properties on two sides of paper is known as two-sidedness.

 

https://www.pulppapermill.com/the-two-sidedness-of-paper/

[A Smug Dill]

2 hours ago, Karmachanic said:

https://www.pulppapermill.com/the-two-sidedness-of-paper/

 

Thank you. That was an interesting read, although it's still a bit confusing to me.

 

“Two-sidedness, also called D/S value or air permeability, refers to the ratio of the speed of the air passing through a given sample to the speed of an equal volume of air passing through a standard sample. The unit is m/s.”

… but what is that “standard sample”? A “standard sample” of Rhodia dotPad 80gsm paper against which to compare consistency of the D/s value from one side to another, one product batch to another, or one ‘recipe’ to another (as I'm certain I have at least two noticeably different types of Rhodia dotPad 80gsm paper here)? Or one industry “standard” paper against which all French, Vietnamese, Chinese, Japanese, papers are to be compared for D/s value?

 

Also, the whole thing reads as if the D/s value for a paper product arises from its two-sidedness, and not so much that the D/s value is directional and the inherent two-sidedness of paper means there would be a difference in the D/s values measured in opposite directions for a single sheet of paper.

[msilverton]

Much appreciated @A Smug Dill. Never thought about this topic before. By chance I just opened a new ream of Kokuyo Business paper and checked both sides of the sheets. One side is very different, looks wavy and has streaks running through it. This was difficult to photograph. I had to tweak the levels pretty hard but I hope you can see the difference. Bad side is on top.

[A Smug Dill]

4 hours ago, msilverton said:

I hope you can see the difference. Bad side is on top.

 

I can see it. Thank you very much sharing your observation and your effort in capturing it in images!

[Runnin_Ute]

I have noticed this in the past. Just grabbed a black cover staple bound dot pad 80 gsm no 18, to check it. And yes, my memory did not deceive me. There was a slight but noticeable difference between the two sides. Tried with multiple pens/inks and it was more noticeable with some than others.

[XYZZY]

On 1/28/2024 at 2:10 PM, Karmachanic said:

 

+1

 

It is my understanding that sizing is in the slurry for writing/copy paper/newsprint.  They will absorb ink to some degree dependent upon end usage.  Coated/glossy paper no so much; brochures/magazines.

There is internal sizing and external sizing.  Internal is in the wet pulp mixture.  External sizing is applied to the surface of the pulp mixture after it is formed into paper (but perhaps while still wet).  The sizing on the surface (the external sizing) might be described as a "coating" by somebody using dictionary definitions of words, but the paper industry uses "coating" to refer to other components that are coated on the surface after the external sizing to further modify the paper.  So when discussing paper it is incorrect to describe sizing as a coating.  Coatings may be used, for example, to increase or decrease absorption, change gloss, change electrical conductivity, prohibit mold or bacterial growth, etc. 

 

Internet searches along the lines of "paper internal vs external sizing" will produce some results with more information.

 

In a paper making class and what I've read about papermaking for enthusiasts (papermaking at home) the internal and external sizing are the same material, but I don't know of any reason why they must be the same, and I would expect that anybody with the capital to do this at an industrial level could probably have them be different if they desired.

[Karmachanic]

8 minutes ago, XYZZY said:

the paper industry uses "coating" to refer to other components that are coated on the surface after the external sizing to further modify the paper. 

 

Quite so:

 

https://www.oppaca.com/en/blog/tips-and-tricks/complete-guide-coated-paper

 

https://paper.domtar.com/blog/coated-vs-uncoated-paper-when-to-use-which/

 

https://www.thepapermillstore.com/paper/coated-paper

 

https://www.arcticpaper.com/brands/g/