68gsm Tomoe River vs 52gsm Sanzen

[ehardy]

A lot has been written at this point about Tomoe River Sanzen paper and how it feels and behaves compared to "Original" and "New" 52gsm Tomoe River paper. One thing that is always left out of comparisons is how it behaves compared to 68gsm TR. I recently got a sample size of 68 TR and I really like the tactile feel, its not as grippy or tactile as Leuchtturm paper which I like. To me Leuchtturm paper feels "matte" while 68gsm TR feels more "eggshell" texture. I don't like it more than "New" TR52, which is currently my favorite...

 

SO...For those who have tried Sanzen and 68gsm TR paper, how do those compare in terms of surface texture / feel? Or if you can point me to a comparison that I missed that would be much appreciated.

[XYZZY]

I have not tried the Sanzen paper yet.  I would say "Real Soon Now" but I don't even have a notebook with that paper in my queue yet.  

 

Back when Musubi broke the news about the "new" 52gsm (July 2020), they also said:

Quote

 

Does this affect Tomoe River 68?

Yes, though the situation is more complicated.

Currently almost all Tomoe River 68 products on the market use what is known as 68N, which was never designed for fountain pen use.

Per our sources, the manufacturer is introducing a new product known as 68 bunguyou (stationery use).

Unfortunately, we do not have enough information currently to know whether this is an entirely new paper, or a rebranding of the current product. Further, in the event this is a new paper, we don't yet know what will happen to the old 68N.

...

Unfortunately, I have learnt that this paper is to-order only, and the minimum order quantity is exceedingly large — somewhere on the scale of 10 tons.

 

I'm currently using the "new" 52gsm for a large project and feel committed to it and have no regrets.  I liked the "New" 52gsm paper because it was so much closer to the 68(N?).  "Closer", not "as good as", but that's moot now anyhow. 

 

The old 68N is still my favorite.  I don't know that I even tried the newer 68gsm, or if anybody is shipping it--probably everybody is still drawing down stock of the old stuff.  Pretty much all of what I read of Tomoe River since then is related to the 52gsm, and since rights went to Sanzen I don't expect to see any more produced.  There's not a lot of people still doing 68gsm notebooks, whereas four years ago new companies kept popping up with new products and the 68gsm seemed to be a much more popular choice at the time.  "Popular" not from the standpoint of individual posts on FPN, but of new products introduced to market.

 

Taroko is still selling their "Enigma" notebook that uses the 68gsm.  https://www.etsy.com/shop/TarokoShop.  

[ehardy]

Thanks for the information. Yes, I saw Taroko still uses it. I have been a long time fan of Taroko. Their now defunct Orchid paper used to be a favorite of mine. A stationary company called Odyssey has 68gsm available too. Was curious how it compared to Sanzen because I really like 68gsm TR...

[A Smug Dill]

On 1/18/2024 at 4:34 AM, ehardy said:

… "New" 52gsm Tomoe River paper. One thing that is always left out of comparisons is how it behaves compared to 68gsm TR.

 

Most likely because that would not be an apples-to-apples comparison, and the topic of the particular reviews or blog articles was not which paper on the market (irrespective of similarity in name or specifications) would best suit the technical requirements of a specific application or project. I also don't see Tomoe River S 52gsm paper compared with Maruman Mnemosyne 68gsm paper (which is only in the smaller N193A notebooks, not anything larger, as far as I'm aware), Exacompta Bloc notepads' FAF 60gsm and 70gsm papers, or Kokuyo Business 64gsm paper sold in 500-sheet reams; and Tomoe River 68gsm paper manufactured by Tomoegawa would be logically no closer those paper to Tomoe River S 52gsm paper manufactured by Sanzen.

 

On 1/18/2024 at 4:34 AM, ehardy said:

I recently got a sample size of 68 TR and I really like the tactile feel, …‹snip›… I don't like it more than "New" TR52, which is currently my favorite...

 

SO...For those who have tried Sanzen and 68gsm TR paper, how do those compare in terms of surface texture / feel? Or if you can point me to a comparison that I missed …‹snip›…

 

Just to be clear, are you asking others to compare two types of paper you have on hand, and presumably have already compared them yourself for surface texture and tactile feel, so that you can exchange notes with them? Or did you mean comparing Tomoe River S 68gsm paper, of which you don't already have a sample, manufactured by Sanzen with Tomoe River 68gsm paper manufactured by Tomoegawa?

 

On 1/18/2024 at 4:34 AM, ehardy said:

its not as grippy or tactile as Leuchtturm paper which I like.

 

Which Leuchtturm paper in particular, or all of them? Today, Leuchtturm1917 Notebook Classic products don't just use a single type of paper, but could have either 80gsm or 100gsm paper; and Bullet Journal Edition 2 and Edition 120G products have 120gsm paper.

[Misfit]

I bought a notebook with Sanzen Tomoe paper, but haven’t used it yet. I have another Travelers Notebook cover ordered, the Kyoto version. Once it arrives, I’ll be trying to set up it and the Olive TN with inserts. I forgot I bought the Sanzen insert along with a Mitsubishi Bank paper insert from the Paper Penguin on Etsy. I need to use all the expensive covers I buy. 

[ehardy]

On 1/22/2024 at 7:15 PM, A Smug Dill said:

Just to be clear, are you asking others to compare two types of paper you have on hand, and presumably have already compared them yourself for surface texture and tactile feel, so that you can exchange notes with them? Or did you mean comparing Tomoe River S 68gsm paper, of which you don't already have a sample, manufactured by Sanzen with Tomoe River 68gsm paper manufactured by Tomoegawa?

 

I have some Tomoegawa 68gsm on hand (as well as "new" 52gsm), was wondering how the texture of that paper compared to 52gsm Sanzen. 

[ehardy]

On 1/22/2024 at 7:15 PM, A Smug Dill said:

Which Leuchtturm paper in particular, or all of them? Today, Leuchtturm1917 Notebook Classic products don't just use a single type of paper, but could have either 80gsm or 100gsm paper; and Bullet Journal Edition 2 and Edition 120G products have 120gsm paper.

 

I was talking about the paper in their Classic line.

[A Smug Dill]

On 1/18/2024 at 4:34 AM, ehardy said:

I don't like it more than "New" TR52, which is currently my favorite...

5 hours ago, ehardy said:

I have some Tomoegawa 68gsm on hand (as well as "new" 52gsm)

 

I'm now more confused than ever, I afraid. By ‘“new” TR52’ and ‘”new” 52gsm‘, are you talking about 52gsm paper made on Tomoegawa's machine number 9, e.g. this (discontinued) retail product from Sakae Technical Paper? That would be “new” back in 2020 and perhaps 2021; but Tomoegawa sold the rights to the Tomoe River name to Sanzen in October 2021, and “new” in the context of discussion of Tomoe River paper over the past couple of years have been what Sanzen produces under that name, including what it now officially calls Tomoe River S paper.

 

Frankly, I don't think I've ever come across anyone else referring to the 52gsm paper produced on Tomoegawa's machine no.9 as their favourite paper; all reviews and anecdotal reports of that paper indicate it is inferior to the 52gsm paper produced on Tomoegawa's machine no.7 previously. I can't judge for myself, of course; I don't have any of the machine no.9 paper here, and never used it myself.

 

On 1/18/2024 at 4:34 AM, ehardy said:

SO...For those who have tried Sanzen and 68gsm TR paper, how do those compare in terms of surface texture / feel?

5 hours ago, ehardy said:

was wondering how the texture of that paper compared to 52gsm Sanzen. 

 

Surely it's easy enough to find/acquire some Tomoe River S 52gsm paper to compare for yourself? “Feel” is a subjective thing, and nothing impresses one more — as to whether the currently available product is “worth” buying — than having spent (albeit a small amount, say ≤US$15) money on it, and contemplating one's strongly positive or negative gut reaction upon using it. That's really what you want to know, no?

[XYZZY]

2 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

I'm now more confused than ever, I afraid. By ‘“new” TR52’ and ‘”new” 52gsm‘, are you talking about 52gsm paper made on Tomoegawa's machine number 9, e.g. this (discontinued) retail product from Sakae Technical Paper? That would be “new” back in 2020 and perhaps 2021; but Tomoegawa sold the rights to the Tomoe River name to Sanzen in October 2021, and “new” in the context of discussion of Tomoe River paper over the past couple of years have been what Sanzen produces under that name, including what it now officially calls Tomoe River S paper.

 

 

 

My understanding is that "new" is still an accepted adjective for the paper produced by Tomoegawa on their #9 machine.  Kinda like "New Coke" is still the term.  Although in the latter case it's probably a proper name and not just an adjective.

 

I suppose though that we'd be better off calling them "7" and "9".

 

[A Smug Dill]

1 minute ago, XYZZY said:

My understanding is that "new" is still an accepted adjective for the paper produced by Tomoegawa on their #9 machine.

 

Not disagreeing with the validity of such use, but it's confusing to others for clear communication given what we (including the O.P.) already know are in the ‘Tomoe River’ paper landscape.

[XYZZY]

1 hour ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

Not disagreeing with the validity of such use, but it's confusing to others for clear communication given what we (including the O.P.) already know are in the ‘Tomoe River’ paper landscape.

Indeed.  I'll endeavor to use 7/9/S from now on. 

[A Smug Dill]

10 hours ago, ehardy said:

I was talking about the paper in their Classic line.

 

which isn't a single type of paper:

 

Never mind. I don't think there's any prospect of productive or informative discussion going forward in this thread, so I'm going to get out of it now. Good luck finding the information you want without discovering it for yourself first-hand.

[ehardy]

I understand that the "new" terminology is confusing now that there is a NEWER TR paper. It was my understanding that some still refer to #9 paper as "new", which is why I put it originally in quotes.  If you look at all of the descriptions on stationary sellers like Nanami Paper, of which I am a frequent customer, they still use "new" to describe #9 paper. 

 

I realize that I could just spent $10-15 to just buy some but of course if I don't like the paper it would be a waste and I don't like waste, plus the cheapest way to get it is loose leaf or a pad and that's not my preferred writing format... 

 

I didn't want to cause a stir, just to request someone's subjective opinion between the papers I originally stated that I have on hand. I thought it would be very quick and easy to someone to test TR #9 and or TR 68gsm paper and Sanzen side by side and give me a description 🫤

[Paul-in-SF]

I just happened to run across a YouTube video that seems to be discussing at least some of what the OP is interested in, with various ink tests (I haven't watched the video, it is about 17 minutes long and covers a subject in which I am only remotely interested, so I don't know if they discuss texture.) The video is from about a year ago. 

 

 

[ehardy]

On 1/30/2024 at 6:01 PM, Paul-in-SF said:

I just happened to run across a YouTube video that seems to be discussing at least some of what the OP is interested in, with various ink tests (I haven't watched the video, it is about 17 minutes long and covers a subject in which I am only remotely interested, so I don't know if they discuss texture.) The video is from about a year ago. 

 

 

 

I've watched this (and just rewatched to confirm) and unfortunately it does not compare the texture of 68gsm Tomoegawa with Sanzen.

[Penguincollector]

  I have all the TR paper in some form or another. I won’t post pictures, as my writing is private, but I can do my best to describe my impressions. All the TR paper is “eggshell” as you put it. 
 

*Old TR 52: so thin and smooth-but handles any amount of ink you need to use. I have to be very careful with anything smaller than EF to not puncture it.

 

*Old TR 68, similar to old 52, but sturdier and not so transparent. My favorite of the TR bunch. 

#9 TR 52: feels thicker to me, pulpier, maybe. Some inks feather. My least favorite of the bunch.

 

#9 TR 68: surprisingly good, very similar to machine #7, but softer, old 68 feels stiffer. No feathering yet. 

 

*Sanzen TR 52: has a velvet pillowy feeling to it, softer still than the #9, but hasn’t feathered yet. Reminds me of b7 Tranext.

 

*Sanzen TR68: a little stiffer than the Sanzen 52 but still with that pillowy feeling. No feathering even with a wet ink/italic broad nib combo.

 

  If you have any other questions, please let me know and I’ll try my best to answer them.

Edited February 7, 2024 by Penguincollector
Switched 68 to 52 in the last section because I was comparing both Sanzen papers to each other.

[ehardy]

11 hours ago, Penguincollector said:

  I have all the TR paper in some form or another. I won’t post pictures, as my writing is private, but I can do my best to describe my impressions. All the TR paper is “eggshell” as you put it. 
 

*Old TR 52: so thin and smooth-but handles any amount of ink you need to use. I have to be very careful with anything smaller than EF to not puncture it.

 

*Old TR 68, similar to old 52, but sturdier and not so transparent. My favorite of the TR bunch. 

#9 TR 52: feels thicker to me, pulpier, maybe. Some inks feather. My least favorite of the bunch.

 

#9 TR 68: surprisingly good, very similar to machine #7, but softer, old 68 feels stiffer. No feathering yet. 

 

*Sanzen TR 52: has a velvet pillowy feeling to it, softer still than the #9, but hasn’t feathered yet. Reminds me of b7 Tranext.

 

*Sanzen TR68: a little stiffer than the Sanzen 68 but still with that pillowy feeling. No feathering even with a wet ink/italic broad nib combo.

 

  If you have any other questions, please let me know and I’ll try my best to answer them.

 

 

THANK YOU! This is exactly what I was looking for. No questions, much thanks 🙌

[XYZZY]

12 hours ago, Penguincollector said:

  I have all the TR paper in some form or another. I won’t post pictures, as my writing is private, but I can do my best to describe my impressions. All the TR paper is “eggshell” as you put it. 
 

*Old TR 52: so thin and smooth-but handles any amount of ink you need to use. I have to be very careful with anything smaller than EF to not puncture it.

 

*Old TR 68, similar to old 52, but sturdier and not so transparent. My favorite of the TR bunch. 

#9 TR 52: feels thicker to me, pulpier, maybe. Some inks feather. My least favorite of the bunch.

 

#9 TR 68: surprisingly good, very similar to machine #7, but softer, old 68 feels stiffer. No feathering yet. 

 

*Sanzen TR 52: has a velvet pillowy feeling to it, softer still than the #9, but hasn’t feathered yet. Reminds me of b7 Tranext.

 

*Sanzen TR68: a little stiffer than the Sanzen 68 but still with that pillowy feeling. No feathering even with a wet ink/italic broad nib combo.

 

  If you have any other questions, please let me know and I’ll try my best to answer them.

 

There is a Sanzen TR68?  Where can I get some of that?

[Penguincollector]

1 hour ago, XYZZY said:

 

There is a Sanzen TR68?  Where can I get some of that?

   Taroko.

[XYZZY]

22 hours ago, Penguincollector said:

   Taroko.

 

Thanks.  How does the Sanzen 68gsm compare to the Tomoegawa 68gsm?

 

I have several Taroko notebooks, but haven't ordered since buying several a few years ago.  I was under the impression that they are still shipping 68gsm made by Tomoegawa, but I just checked Sanzen's web site http://www.sanzenseishi.co.jp/publics/index/66/ and they say "In addition to 52 g/m2 , 68 g/m2 has been added as a standard specification" (that's Chrome's auto-translation to English).

 

Taroko has a habit of being closed when I want to check out their offerings, and for whatever reason they hide their products on Etsy when they're closed.  Very frustrating.  I wish they could show the products and either not accept orders or just put up a warning that things wont ship right away.