Scattered Thoughts on a Beautiful Old Ink

[Penguincollector]

  @Lithium466 gave a a bottle of JIF-Waterman Encre Rouge Intense made in France. It’s so intense that it has darkened and browned considerably. We could not determine exactly when it was made. I have seen the familiar Waterman bottle with this particular stlye of  label in catalogues from around 1947.  

   The ink reminds me of blood that has oxidized and dried, but in some lighting and on some papers it has purple undertones. I didn’t put this under the review category, because I didn’t do all the things that reviewers do, but am not opposed if it’s moved. I used 3 different pens, a glass dip pen, a 1930’s Waterman desk pen, also dipped because I wasn’t sure how this ink would affect the sac, and a modern Chinese piston filler that I stubbed myself. The ink feels a bit dry for Waterman, I guess some of the lubricants have evaporated or changed somewhat. It shades really nicely. It dried between 5 and 10 seconds on Tomoe River 68. It’s fainter with the smaller nibs, and looks almost brown out of the stub. It’s very elegant on cream paper.  I really don’t know what else to say, but welcome questions, comments, and requests for more testing on other papers or using other methods. I just managed to spill some drinking water onto a page and it’s rather resistant, wasn’t expecting that. 
  So onto the photos- most should say what the paper is, sometimes I have to edit after posting once I see the layout. If any papers are not indicated, I’ll fix

 The sideways paper with the dots is Iroful.

[Penguincollector]

Last paper with the water spill is TR 68.

[Lithium466]

Very nice overview, thank you!

 

I wonder if there are some other examples of "old" red inks that darkened/turned to brownish like that? The only other example I had was a cartridge of Pelikan 4001 red from ~2000, and it was just as light and pinkish orange than I remembered.

[Penguincollector]

5 hours ago, Lithium466 said:

Very nice overview, thank you!

 

I wonder if there are some other examples of "old" red inks that darkened/turned to brownish like that? The only other example I had was a cartridge of Pelikan 4001 red from ~2000, and it was just as light and pinkish orange than I remembered.

  I have found more examples of similar aged Waterman red from the US, but I haven’t really been looking. My Parker Quink Permanent Red is a bit dark, like brick red, but I haven’t compared it to a more current Parker red (‘90s), and my other Parker red is probably current Waterman red, so probably not a good comparison. 

[I-am-not-really-here]

The U.S. distribution comparative would be Carnation Red.  
 

Your ink looks as bad as one of my bottles of Persian Rose.  I keep it only as a reminder of the "unknowingness" of buying vintage ink.  It reminds me of buying expired film and the mystery, until a roll is run, of color shift stuck in the emulsion.

[Penguincollector]

10 minutes ago, I-am-not-really-here said:

The U.S. distribution comparative would be Carnation Red.  
 

Your ink looks as bad as one of my bottles of Persian Rose.  I keep it only as a reminder of the "unknowingness" of buying vintage ink.  It reminds me of buying expired film and the mystery, until a roll is run, of color shift stuck in the emulsion.

  It’s definitely not what it srarted out as, but I do like the color. I think it’s going to live in this pen when used.  I had forgotten about expired film, that’s an apt comparison. This is the only example of turned ink that I have seen, my other vintage inks have been fine, if a bit concentrated. Maybe it’s a certain dye used in reds and rosy colors. 

[Sailor Kenshin]

I have very old bottles of Waterman Carnation, AND Pelikan Red.  Both are clear and bright as rubies.

 

Puzzling!

[inkstainedruth]

Hmmm.  Wondering now if it's a case where some previous owner of the ink either mixed a couple of inks together in order to get a better liked color, or that the ink something else entirely, put in an empty bottle for use (and it wasn't noted as being a different ink...); a few years ago I picked up an empty MB "shoe" bottle at an antiques mall, just for such a purpose, but never did anything with the bottle.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Lithium466]

18 minutes ago, inkstainedruth said:

Hmmm.  Wondering now if it's a case where some previous owner of the ink either mixed a couple of inks together in order to get a better liked color, or that the ink something else entirely, put in an empty bottle for use (and it wasn't noted as being a different ink...); a few years ago I picked up an empty MB "shoe" bottle at an antiques mall, just for such a purpose, but never did anything with the bottle.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

That's always a possibility ; the bottle came along with some blue and green that were as expected and close to modern Waterman, and another bottle of red that was just like this one, but almost empty.

[Penguincollector]

I found another bottle on etsy that looks rather similar in color, I think.

[Lithium466]

Mmm, could it be that "intense" JIF formula aging less gracefully than the "carnation"?

[Penguincollector]

It’s looking like it. Here’s a couple of pictures from delcampe and Andrew Lensky’s site found in a google search for JIF Waterman encre rouge:

Edited December 12, 2023 by Penguincollector
I’m sorry, I tried to fix the formatting, but it doesn’t let me.

[I-am-not-really-here]

9 minutes ago, Penguincollector said:

It’s looking like it.

Huh? You have a sample size of one.  How an ink looks from outside the bottle is indicative of nothing, sorry.  Is Pelikan Rose Quartz ink brown? No but it sure looks it from the outside.

 

 

[Penguincollector]

Ok.

[yazeh]

@Penguincollector thanks for this fun review  I love learning about old inks and I have one powdered  one that I have to review at some time.

 

[AmandaW]

Thankyou for the review and discussion.

[Penguincollector]

  Thanks for reading, @yazeh and @AmandaW!

[Misfit]

Congratulations @Penguincollector you did the review, and did it well. It showed me a vintage Waterman bottle.  The different papers are always useful, plus different nib sizes. And you provided an apt name for rouge ink now looking brown or “dried blood”. 

[Lithium466]

10 hours ago, Penguincollector said:

It’s looking like it. Here’s a couple of pictures from delcampe and Andrew Lensky’s site found in a google search for JIF Waterman encre rouge:

These stickers in a good shape are deliciously vintage and pretty!

That Intense Violette!

 

In that last picture I agree the ink sticking to the glass looks like the bottle I sent you. How confusing. Maybe the die used wasn't eosin, or it was mixed with something?

I could also swear that my Diamine Poppy red had darkened since I bought it, but a fresh bottle showed I was likely wrong.

[Penguincollector]

Thank you @Misfit. It really does look like dried blood. I did a double take when getting rid of the cleanup paper towels.

 @Lithium466 the bottles are gorgeous, and I was also admiring Mr Lensky’s collection. His are so clean and tidy considering the age of the bottles, and the boxes behind look new!