Fountain pen clones - Terminology - A first try

[antoniosz]

Man, I have not posted here for such a long time, that I could not even find which Forum to post these thoughts. 
I was thing aloud about one of my favorite topics - The "Clones". They are part of Pen History so here it goes.
I have always been facinated with the "Clones", fountain pens that were trying to claim the spotlight while they share some to many common aspects (design, name) of another, well known pen.  From the early days of my collecting life I was initially fascinated by the fake Parker Sonnet from China and I wrote a number of postings with the main one on penhero.com (see https://www.penhero.com/PenGallery/Parker/ParkerSonnetClones.htm) but also here on FPN.  Of course, this is a trend that started neither with the fake Montblanks of the 90s, nor the Parker Sonnets of the 2000s.  It is rooted way back in the Fountain Pen History.  Many people tried to benefit from the success of important models by producing mostly illegally what we call today "clones". Misterlook  and a bunch of  Esterbrook "clones"  pop up often in my mind, because the copied pen did not have to be an expensive one, simply a very widely known brand.  Anyway I digress.   

 

The "clones" have come along way.   For good or bad, they are now easily traded even on Amazon.  But what exactly consitutes a clone?  Or is this the exact term that we should use?  People use more gentle terms like inspired, or tribute, or even the even more refined "hommage".  I always thought that the last one is just a silly trick to use an uncommon word to avoid calling it a clone.  The "clones" are here to stay (whether we like it or now - and please don't turn this thread into a fight for the ethics of cloning ).  Many of them are actually decent users!...  So I thought to propose a standardized terminology...

 

• When a pen has some visual similarities but there is no doubt that the "original", genuine pen is different enough, we should say that this "clone", which is really not a clone, is pen INSPIRED by the original one. Example: 
   

  Jinhao 15 Guangzhou Tower (or Wasteline) model (still been sold in Amazon!)

• Waterman Serenitè (ORIGINAL)

  
  Of course the Serenite has the well known bend shape while the Jinhao, often call by the name "Gullor" is straight.
   
• When it is hard to distinguish a pen from a quick look from the original genuine pen, then we will call the pen a WANNA BE. I would reserve the term TRIBUTE or HOMMAGE if the original pen dates decades before the date of issue of the "Wanna Be".  An important condition for this category is that the "Wanna Be" pen should not carry the name of the original pen company or model.
   

  Seagull (Japan) from https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/321688-mystery-parker-vacumatic-copy

   

  Parker Vacumatic

   
   
• Finally, in a class of their own, we have the "TRUE FAKES" or "GENUINE CLONES" - pun absolutely intended - which carry the name of the original pen make, even if there are minor differences between them and the original pen.  

 

Typical Chinese Sonnet Clone sold in Ebay (2023 Fall)

 

Original Parker Sonnet Ciselé

What do you think?  Of course we can always add internediate grades as TRUE FAKE- or WANNA BE+ to cover gradations and introduce the obligatory ambiguity    Example the Jinhao Centennials which I am not sure if they are an Homage+ or a True Fake-

Let me know what you think. 

 

 

PS>  The original article is in  https://azfp.blogspot.com/2023/11/fountain-pen-clones-terminology-first.html to avoid the issue of lost images

Edited November 18, 2023 by antoniosz
minor typos

[txomsy]

I would make a distinction, when a pen follows, no matter how exactly, a design whose patent or copyright protection has expired (or doesn't exist) and is in the public domain, but does not try to use the original name or trademark, the term fake or clone I think is misleading and something better is required.

 

One should be careful. I remember in the '90s a YouTube video from some fashion companies, where they claimed that in in the clothing fashion industry everyone copied each other. It is the branding, small details and quality that make most of the price difference, but if each brand had totally different designs, then fashion wouldn't be fashion --by definition.

 

So, I agree, we need some way to make differences: the Lamy Logo has many of the characteristics of the original Aurora Hastil, but they are implemented enough differently to claim individuality. Other designs are such blatant copies (down to the logo and brand engravings) that they are disgusting clones that dilute the original brand image (and benefits).

 

For me, the main difference is in whether the design tries to mislead customers or tries to hijack and rob a legit brand of the results of its work (design, manufacture, advertising, branding, image building...) for a quick buck, or whether they are using what they are legitimately entitled to use because it is theirs or in the public domain shared common good and they try to offer something the original maker didn't.

 

But when a design is no longer protected and is in the public domain, personally, I would prefer not to speak of clones, because that is what public domain was established for: so anyone could use a design and produce new versions, possibly cheaper or maybe more elaborated.

 

I do not know what a proper name would be for these. Maybe a "reincarnation?" or a "reinterpretation"? a "recycied design"?

[antoniosz]

  On 11/18/2023 at 6:00 PM, txomsy said:

I would make a distinction, when a pen follows, no matter how exactly, a design whose patent or copyright protection has expired (or doesn't exist) and is in the public domain, but does not try to use the original name or trademark, the term fake or clone I think is misleading and something better is required.....

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I appreciate your thoughs.  I went back to put the word "clones" in ""  as I used it to describe the whole gamut of pens that span the whole range from the "inspired" to the "True Fake".   Perhaps we need to find a better word to call this large group.  What you call, very creatively. "Reincarnation", "Reinterpretation" or "Recycled Design" is what i had in mind with the term  "Tribute" or "Hommage", which I thought that by stating that the new pen is separated by many decades from the original allows the use of such terms.  Example:


JINHAO 85


versus 

Parker 51 Special Edition (2021) which by itself is a tribute to the original 51.  

So we agree

Edited November 18, 2023 by antoniosz
minor typos

[austollie]

I'm not sure about terminology, but the whole cloning issue is bothersome.  I am a fan of the Lamy Safari and that's cloned/ copied/ faked by many.  You can get fakes (including of old special edition colours), copies that boldly have the name of the manufacturer (e.g. Jinhao 777) and pens that are draw inspiration from the Safari, but are different (e.g. Jinhao 599).

 

My personal policy is not to buy fakes and clones, but I do buy pens that have been inspired by the original.  For example, I have a Kaco Edge cartridge filler that was clearly inspired by the Lamy 2000 and I have a couple of Jinhao 599 pens, that were clearly inspired by the Lamy Safari.  Both the Kaco Edge and Jinhao 599 are sufficiently different that they can't be confused for the real thing and, here's the kicker, both work very well and offer excellent value for money.  In fact, I wish that Lamy would bring out a cartridge filler version of the Lamy 2000.  Had Lamy done that, I wouldn't have bought the Kaco Edge at about a tenth of the price (with little difference in performance).

[antoniosz]

  On 11/18/2023 at 9:39 PM, austollie said:

I'm not sure about terminology, but the whole cloning issue is bothersome.   I am a fan of the Lamy Safari and that's cloned/ copied/ faked by many.  You can get fakes (including of old special edition colours), copies that boldly have the name of the manufacturer (e.g. Jinhao 777) and pens that are draw inspiration from the Safari, but are different (e.g. Jinhao 599)......

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I hear you.  Honestly, I do understand how some people feel about some of these pens.  I collect Parker Sonnets.  This is why I worked hard at the beginning to identify fakes and passed this information around.  But feelings aside, I was just trying to classify them.   So the Kaco Edge and the JInhao 599 are clearly "INSPIRED" pens.   Now regarding Jinhao 777, one would note that the patent for the Lamy Safari is from 1982.   Therefore it is past the 20 years of protection, at least here in the US.   So the Jinhao 777 is the generic equivalent to Safari, to borrow the terminology from the pharmaceutical field.  Like whatever is Atorvastitin generic to Lipitor    Perhaps this is a good terminology i.e. to use the term "GENERIC" rather than "TRIBUTE" that I was initially considering. 

[Sailor Kenshin]

Dislike fakes, where a Chinese pen bears the name of Parker or Lamy, but is not.  I have not run into any of these.

 

However, a substantial chunk of my fountain pen collection is made up of clones, tributes, inspirations, or whatever, and I love them.  Cheap, cute, durable, and excellent writers for the most part. 

 

I can take them places, use dangerous inks in them, and if one is lost, a tear or two will fall.  But not many.

[Penguincollector]

  On 11/19/2023 at 4:29 PM, Sailor Kenshin said:

Dislike fakes, where a Chinese pen bears the name of Parker or Lamy, but is not.  I have not run into any of these.

 

However, a substantial chunk of my fountain pen collection is made up of clones, tributes, inspirations, or whatever, and I love them.  Cheap, cute, durable, and excellent writers for the most part. 

 

I can take them places, use dangerous inks in them, and if one is lost, a tear or two will fall.  But not many.

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  Exactly this. I got into the Chinese market when I had to serve on a grand jury for a month and the only inexpensive fp I had was an Ooly that I found at the grocery store. I found a generic Sonnet clone, not a fake, on eBay and was surprised by the quality and price. It opened up a whole new world of possibilities for me- so many kawaii Chinese pens! I can definitely see the problem if the Sonnet is your focus, though. I want a ciselé, and it looks like I will have to pay full retail for one as I don’t trust the second hand market for that particular model one bit. 

[antoniosz]

  On 11/19/2023 at 4:29 PM, Sailor Kenshin said:

Dislike fakes, where a Chinese pen bears the name of Parker or Lamy, but is not.  I have not run into any of these.

 

However, a substantial chunk of my fountain pen collection is made up of clones, tributes, inspirations, or whatever, and I love them.  Cheap, cute, durable, and excellent writers for the most part. 

 

I can take them places, use dangerous inks in them, and if one is lost, a tear or two will fall.  But not many.

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Sailor Kenshin, that is a name that I recognize from back then (late 2000)!!! 
Good to "see" you  
You are right many of the recent "inspired" pens are great user pens.  They are not the true clones of the early 2000 that were of horrible quality. 

 

 

  On 11/19/2023 at 5:15 PM, Penguincollector said:

  Exactly this. I got into the Chinese market when I had to serve on a grand jury for a month and the only inexpensive fp I had was an Ooly that I found at the grocery store. I found a generic Sonnet clone, not a fake, on eBay and was surprised by the quality and price. It opened up a whole new world of possibilities for me- so many kawaii Chinese pens! I can definitely see the problem if the Sonnet is your focus, though. I want a ciselé, and it looks like I will have to pay full retail for one as I don’t trust the second hand market for that particular model one bit. 

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Hi Penguincollector.  Consider the Jinhao 75 "inpired" Sonnet.   It is a good user pen.

[Penguincollector]

Thanks, It’s a very cute pen, with the red ring. I wonder if there are other ring colors . It may tide me over until I order the real one.

[antoniosz]

  On 11/19/2023 at 8:41 PM, Penguincollector said:

Thanks, It’s a very cute pen, with the red ring. I wonder if there are other ring colors . It may tide me over until I order the real one.

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JInhao 75 variations. I dont like it that the one with the gold plated ring is rather close (from a far)  to the Sonnet, and the black with the red ring is close to the Parker Sonnet Big Red of the Great Expectations. Which is also interesting as some of them do not have similars in the Sonnet line but others can be deceiving - although all of them have the brand on the ring.

[Penguincollector]

  On 11/19/2023 at 8:59 PM, antoniosz said:

JInhao 75 variations. I dont like it that the one with the gold plated ring is rather close (from a far)  to the Sonnet, and the black with the red ring is close to the Parker Sonnet Big Red of the Great Expectations. Which is also interesting as some of them do not have similars in the Sonnet line but others can be deceiving - although all of them have the brand on the ring.

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  They remind me of the IM Vibrant Rings line.  The matte black is pretty.

[Sailor Kenshin]

  On 11/19/2023 at 7:22 PM, antoniosz said:

 

Sailor Kenshin, that is a name that I recognize from back then (late 2000)!!! 
Good to "see" you  
You are right many of the recent "inspired" pens are great user pens.  They are not the true clones of the early 2000 that were of horrible quality. 

 

 

Hi Penguincollector.  Consider the Jinhao 75 "inpired" Sonnet.   It is a good user pen.

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I remember you, too!  Loved your videos.

[AceNinja]

Here's my 2 cents on this topic:

 

Inspired - pens that looks not exactly like the source pen, but we can usually see where it got the element idea from. Example: Moonman T1, WS3008

 

Clone / Knock-offs / Copycat - to me, these terms means the same thing. pens that looks very much like the source pen, and can often be mistaken for the source pen if viewed from distance. Distinctively, they have manufacturer brandings on the pen to show that it is not the source pen. Example: Jinhao 599, 777, 51A, 100, X159, 992, 80, 82, 82mini, WS3001, WS3003, 699, 630, Moonman M800, M600, A1, Delike Brass pen.

 

Fakes - pens that looks very much like the source pen, although it does use a different branding form the source pen, but, the branding is purposely made to look very much alike to the source brand. And in the marketing (ebay title), it is purposely titled very murky so newbie couldn't tell if it is the real deal.  For example, if there's a pen that looks like a WS630, but the name on the cap band is "Mont Blanc Meistarstuck" (notice the space between Montblanc, and wrong spelling of Meisterstuck), then I'll say it's a fake.  When challenged, the seller will most likely reply "No, i didn't say i sold you a Montblanc, what i sold to you is a Mont Blanc, its your fault you didn't read properly."   Note: a redditor once pointed out to me that in the world of cosmetic / expensive apparel products (eg LV, gucci bags) , the term Knock-off is used.  

 

Scams - pens that are completely same as the source pen, even the brand name on the pen is same like the source brand, and the seller is actively promoting it as the source pen. All the ebay titles, product images, description, all indicating that its the source pen. The price is much lower than the source pen, but not too low that most people immediately flag it as scam. Maybe around 50% lower, so it tries to make the user think they stumble upon a genuine good deal.

[antoniosz]

  On 11/21/2023 at 5:36 AM, AceNinja said:

Here's my 2 cents on this topic:

 

Inspired - pens that looks not exactly like the source pen, but we can usually see where it got the element idea from. Example: Moonman T1, WS3008

 

Clone / Knock-offs / Copycat - to me, these terms means the same thing. pens that looks very much like the source pen, and can often be mistaken for the source pen if viewed from distance. Distinctively, they have manufacturer brandings on the pen to show that it is not the source pen. Example: Jinhao 599, 777, 51A, 100, X159, 992, 80, 82, 82mini, WS3001, WS3003, 699, 630, Moonman M800, M600, A1, Delike Brass pen.

 

Fakes - pens that looks very much like the source pen, although it does use a different branding form the source pen, but, the branding is purposely made to look very much alike to the source brand. And in the marketing (ebay title), it is purposely titled very murky so newbie couldn't tell if it is the real deal.  For example, if there's a pen that looks like a WS630, but the name on the cap band is "Mont Blanc Meistarstuck" (notice the space between Montblanc, and wrong spelling of Meisterstuck), then I'll say it's a fake.  When challenged, the seller will most likely reply "No, i didn't say i sold you a Montblanc, what i sold to you is a Mont Blanc, its your fault you didn't read properly."   Note: a redditor once pointed out to me that in the world of cosmetic / expensive apparel products (eg LV, gucci bags) , the term Knock-off is used.  

.....

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Thanks for your comment.  We are "roughly" thinking similarly.  The only problem of using the terms fakes/knock off is the implication that there is a licence to produce the original product which is violated by the "knock-off".    What happens if that licence has expired?   

Also let's go through the following mental excersise.  Out ofthese three pens 2 are "high-end" by price and one is a low pen that you would call a "knock off/copy cat".   Name the "knock-off/copy cat"  (top, middle or bottom)!   Or are there two "knock-offs/copy cats"? 

[AceNinja]

  On 11/22/2023 at 3:08 PM, antoniosz said:

Thanks for your comment.  We are "roughly" thinking similarly.  The only problem of using the terms fakes/knock off is the implication that there is a licence to produce the original product which is violated by the "knock-off".    What happens if that licence has expired?   

Also let's go through the following mental excersise.  Out ofthese three pens 2 are "high-end" by price and one is a low pen that you would call a "knock off/copy cat".   Name the "knock-off/copy cat"  (top, middle or bottom)!   Or are there two "knock-offs/copy cats"? 

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As for license expired or not, i think the wording fakes/knock-off is already too murky to clearly indicate if it infringes any active license.  So if one wants to clearly distinguish that, maybe need to add additional wording like "knock-off - infringes license", or something like that, or need to create a new word?

 

I like this mental exercise!  Let me go through..  it looks difficult!

 

1.  Top: It immediately looks to me like a Montblanc pen, due to the barrel finial looks quite long, indicating that it should be a piston knob.  A piston filler pen.  but it don't have 3 cap band, so its not MB.  So i was thinking maybe Sailor.. KOP?  but no the barrel finial looks too much like a piston knob.  And WS630 has 3 cap band.  So... my guess is Majohn P136.

 

2.  Middle: the slighly translucent barrel, with which i can see a metal rod running in the centre.  So Its a vac filler.  The ball shaped clip, so its a pilot, which means this is a Pilot Custom 823.  Or, is it a WS699?  Did WS699 copied the ball shaped clip also? i don't remember.  My guess is... Pilot Custom 823.

 

3.  Bottom: 3 cap band, and i think i can almost see a little bit of 6 pointed star on the cap, so its a Montblanc, not sure 146 or 149.  And it seems like its photo graphed on top of a nice leather book cover or pen case, so.. must be MB.

[antoniosz]

  On 11/23/2023 at 5:48 AM, AceNinja said:

I like this mental exercise!  Let me go through..  it looks difficult!

 

1.  Top: It immediately looks to me like a Montblanc pen, due to the barrel finial looks quite long, indicating that it should be a piston knob.  A piston filler pen.  but it don't have 3 cap band, so its not MB.  So i was thinking maybe Sailor.. KOP?  but no the barrel finial looks too much like a piston knob.  And WS630 has 3 cap band.  So... my guess is Majohn P136.

 

2.  Middle: the slighly translucent barrel, with which i can see a metal rod running in the centre.  So Its a vac filler.  The ball shaped clip, so its a pilot, which means this is a Pilot Custom 823.  Or, is it a WS699?  Did WS699 copied the ball shaped clip also? i don't remember.  My guess is... Pilot Custom 823.

 

3.  Bottom: 3 cap band, and i think i can almost see a little bit of 6 pointed star on the cap, so its a Montblanc, not sure 146 or 149.  And it seems like its photo graphed on top of a nice leather book cover or pen case, so.. must be MB.

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Spot on!... P136, Pilot 823 and MB.   I should have put a Pilot 743
You did great!

 

[AceNinja]

How about this?  Is this Sailor 1911 LE Fried Egg Jelly Fish?

[antoniosz]

  On 12/2/2023 at 1:04 AM, AceNinja said:

How about this?  Is this Sailor 1911 LE Fried Egg Jelly Fish?

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Seems like a 992 to me. 

[AAAndrew]

I'll just throw in that in the art world, "fake" has the specific meaning of something made to deceive. Artists often "copy" a painting, but will not then put Van Gough's signature on it, which would make it a fake. Even if you make an exact copy of a work of art, ethical artists will somehow mark it to indicate that it is not an authentic work, but a copy.  Someone makes a Parker 51 copy, but with their name on it, it's a copy. If they put Parker markings on it made to look like a real Parker, it's a fake. I can appreciate the other terminology you're developing to distinguish those inspired by old designs vs. those copying old designs vs those copying current designs. Those can be distinguished by different terms. I would only propose that we reserve the term "fake" to indicate something meant to deceive the buyer, as they do in the art market. 

[Sailor Kenshin]

  On 12/7/2023 at 11:48 AM, AAAndrew said:

I'll just throw in that in the art world, "fake" has the specific meaning of something made to deceive. Artists often "copy" a painting, but will not then put Van Gough's signature on it, which would make it a fake. Even if you make an exact copy of a work of art, ethical artists will somehow mark it to indicate that it is not an authentic work, but a copy.  Someone makes a Parker 51 copy, but with their name on it, it's a copy. If they put Parker markings on it made to look like a real Parker, it's a fake. I can appreciate the other terminology you're developing to distinguish those inspired by old designs vs. those copying old designs vs those copying current designs. Those can be distinguished by different terms. I would only propose that we reserve the term "fake" to indicate something meant to deceive the buyer, as they do in the art market. 

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True.  Artists frequently go to museums, to copy (and learn from) the masters.  The rule was that the study had to be a different size, or medium, than the original.