DeAtramentis Document properties question

[jwsandersjr]

I've been thinking about giving the DeAtramentis Document series a try as I do prefer a waterproof or water resistant ink. In researching some of the properties, I've come across some conflicting statements about this series of inks. The Goulet website says that the Document series is NOT pigmented. The JetPens website says that the Document series IS pigmented. Which is correct.

 

Forgive me if this has been addressed else where. Honest: I did do a search first.

 

[amberleadavis]

It is not pigmented.

[yazeh]

Apparently it's nano pigmented...

and here they sell it as pigment ink:

https://paintspot.ca/art-supplies/writing-fountain-pens/04-ink/de-atramentis-ink/de-atramentis-document-ink/

[AceNinja]

4 hours ago, amberleadavis said:

It is not pigmented.

I've always thought that DA's document series inks are pigmented..  If not pigmented, how do they stay water resistant?

[LizEF]

25 minutes ago, AceNinja said:

I've always thought that DA's document series inks are pigmented..  If not pigmented, how do they stay water resistant?

Ditto.

[SashK]

This topic is going places. 

 

Count so far: Pigmented 4 - 2 Not pigmented

 

My thinking would be that this should be info that is clearly mentioned on the packaging. It should say what type of fountain pen ink it is. Pigment, nano pigment, aqueous dye ink, iron gall etc. 

 

I'm invested now. 

[yazeh]

I wrote to De Atramentis. This is what they wrote:

"The artist inks and the document inks are made of nanoparticles.  They are so small that they are suitable for the fountain pen."

 

Hope this settles it

 

[LizEF]

36 minutes ago, yazeh said:

I wrote to De Atramentis. This is what they wrote:

"The artist inks and the document inks are made of nanoparticles.  They are so small that they are suitable for the fountain pen."

 

Hope this settles it

 

Thank you.

[Surlyprof]

6 hours ago, yazeh said:

"The artist inks and the document inks are made of nanoparticles.  They are so small that they are suitable for the fountain pen."

Hmm… I wonder how those particles compare to a pigmented ink like Platinum Carbon Black.  I’ve encountered some problems with that (PCB) clogging a pen or two earlier than I think it should.  I like both inks and may shift to using DeAtrimentis since it also stands up to watercolors.

[LizEF]

26 minutes ago, Surlyprof said:

I wonder how those particles compare to a pigmented ink like Platinum Carbon Black.

I believe all "pigmented" fountain pen ink is actually "nanopigment" - the size of particles may vary a little, but not that much.

 

27 minutes ago, Surlyprof said:

I’ve encountered some problems with that (PCB) clogging a pen or two earlier than I think it should.

Is it possible this is due to evaporation of water from the ink in the pen?  This would be the most likely cause.  Pens that don't seem to have evaporation issues with "ordinary" inks can reveal themselves when you use an ink that's less tolerant to evaporation.

[yazeh]

8 hours ago, LizEF said:

Thank you.

Welcome 😸

[Stompie]

I have been interested in seeing what the answer to the original question was as I had a recent bad experience with Document Brown ink. It clogged up a feed on one of my pens to such a degree that I can not scrape the sludge off even with a file. As a result the ink has been placed one side never to be used again!

 

It still seems, reading through all the replies, that the question still remains unanswered 🤣

[AndyYNWA]

1 hour ago, Stompie said:

I have been interested in seeing what the answer to the original question was as I had a recent bad experience with Document Brown ink. It clogged up a feed on one of my pens to such a degree that I can not scrape the sludge off even with a file. As a result the ink has been placed one side never to be used again!

 

It still seems, reading through all the replies, that the question still remains unanswered 🤣

Since De Atramentis answered that the ink contains nanoparticles, I think that answers the original question. 🤷‍♂️ At least I read it as the ink contains nano pigments.
Or are you looking for another answer?

 

[Stompie]

3 hours ago, AndyYNWA said:

Since De Atramentis answered that the ink contains nanoparticles, I think that answers the original question. 🤷‍♂️ At least I read it as the ink contains nano pigments.
Or are you looking for another answer?

 

Well, as even nanoparticles can join up/bond to form larger sizes than just a single nanoparticle, it would seem that the answer given by DeAtramentis was a "politicians" avoidance/deflection type of  answer. Pigments, by mistake, can be nanoparticles as well so, what are they actually saying?

Then there is the question of what nanoparticles do they use? If they are of a material that is easy to bond to itself, or other materials, then it is quite feasible that they can join up and that might be the reason for the sludge that I encountered which could possibly be the result of the conglomeration of certain nanoparticles to where they become larger pigment particles taking them out of the category of nanoparticles. Which may also vary depending on what stabilising agent, if any, their answer did not mention anything about that, that they may or may not use in the formulation of the ink.

 

But, to be honest, it is mere curiosity really, as I have merely put the ink one side as there are more than enough other inks I use that have not caused me any issues like clogging up a feed.

[Lithium466]

10 hours ago, Stompie said:

I have been interested in seeing what the answer to the original question was as I had a recent bad experience with Document Brown ink. It clogged up a feed on one of my pens to such a degree that I can not scrape the sludge off even with a file. As a result the ink has been placed one side never to be used again!

 

🤣

I have heard the brand's dilution solution was effective at cleaning clogged feeds. Never tried myself, but that topic came up at the last local pen club meeting.

[yazeh]

10 hours ago, Stompie said:

I have been interested in seeing what the answer to the original question was as I had a recent bad experience with Document Brown ink. It clogged up a feed on one of my pens to such a degree that I can not scrape the sludge off even with a file. As a result the ink has been placed one side never to be used again!

Sorry to hear that. I've been reviewing many of the Document/Artist series, I didn't have that experience. I've never had clogging, but I had a recent experience and dunked the pen into a cleaning solution (Monteverde) or you can get the one by R& K, let it soak over night and your feed should be liberated

 

[arcfide]

On 9/4/2023 at 6:19 PM, LizEF said:

I believe all "pigmented" fountain pen ink is actually "nanopigment" - the size of particles may vary a little, but not that much.

 

I'd say that the vast majority of pigmented fountain pen inks are indeed nano-pigmented, and just called pigmented in most fountain pen oriented shops. However, there are a few inks which some companies have marketed both presently and in the past that are said to be usable in fountain pens, use pigments, but are not what we would think of as fountain pen friendly inks. I don't recall the name off the top of my head (maybe Windsor?), but I think there is a line of artists inks that is marketed by the company as fountain pen usable, but which is so heavily pigmented with large particles and with binders that are not generally considered suitable for fountain pens that the general advice is to use it and then immediately clean the pen after use and never store the pen inked with such inks. 

 

Outside of that specific case, I think the overwhelming majority of inks marketed for fountain pens that are pigmented would classify as nanopigment. 

[arcfide]

22 hours ago, Stompie said:

Well, as even nanoparticles can join up/bond to form larger sizes than just a single nanoparticle, it would seem that the answer given by DeAtramentis was a "politicians" avoidance/deflection type of  answer. Pigments, by mistake, can be nanoparticles as well so, what are they actually saying?

 

Starting at least back with Platinum's marketing materials, it's become common to assert the use of nanoparticles for fountain pen friendly pigmented inks. It's generally considered, at least in my experience, to be the "typical" term for any fountain pen friendly pigments. I've never seen any company discuss the exact pigments used, though I think Platinum has maybe said something about how small their black pigments were, maybe. I don't think De Atramentis is trying to be elusive, but rather that they're referring to the common term used in the industry for the class of pigments that most companies feel is safe for use in fountain pens, which probably *also* has a corollary in the pigments industry with a specific term, probably also called nano-pigments. Based on a quick search, I think it's clear that nano-pigments is an accepted term within wider coloring industry, but also that it is not easy to fully define exactly what makes something a nano-pigment. 

[LizEF]

3 hours ago, arcfide said:

However, there are a few inks which some companies have marketed both presently and in the past that are said to be usable in fountain pens, use pigments, but are not what we would think of as fountain pen friendly inks. I don't recall the name off the top of my head (maybe Windsor?), but I think there is a line of artists inks that is marketed by the company as fountain pen usable, but which is so heavily pigmented with large particles and with binders that are not generally considered suitable for fountain pens that the general advice is to use it and then immediately clean the pen after use and never store the pen inked with such inks. 

Yes.  Winsor Newton apparently don't know what "fountain pen" means.

[LizEF]

IMO, the biggest issue with all these permanent inks is evaporation.  Other inks will be more forgiving - both allowing more evaporation before issues occur, and being easier to re-dissolve with water or pen flush, and therefore easier to fully clean from the pen after evaporation or even drying.

 

I assert that if you're going to use a permanent ink, it should go into a pen that seals the nib and feed very well. Many Platinum pens and the TWSBI Eco are the usual examples given.  As someone who lives in the desert, it's easier for me to identify pens that don't seal well - I can spot a difference overnight, if not sooner.  Those who live in areas where evaporation takes longer may have a harder time identifying which pens are best or worst for permanent inks.  (And this can create some confusion with some online opinions saying a pen is just fine and a minority saying it doesn't seal well.)