Big hands?

[Arsouille]

Hi all -

 

I keep seeing youtube reviews that equate pen sizes with hand sizes, and I am puzzled by this. I have the type of hands that are good to play piano with, but the relatively small Sailor Pro Gear is perfect for me, and I've come to realize that given a choice between an M800 and an M120 I would pick the M120 every time. 

 

But that also got me thinking - vintage pens are typically much smaller than modern ones, and for decades Pelikan's largest pen was the M400. It looks like the M800 was only launched in the late 80s, as fountain pens were already well past their golden age. Surely people had big hands in the 1930s-70s? And they clearly did more handwriting than we currently do. 

 

I have 2 pet theories, with 0 proof or backing behind them:

- Could it be that people used to be taught to write and hold their pens in very specific ways, which worked well with smaller pens, and as the teaching of penmanship became less strict, they were given much more leeway, and started holding their pens in ways that make bigger pens more comfortable? I know that people's handwritings used to be much harder to identify, as children were taught to shape letters in very standa

- Could it be that when fountain pens were the primary writing instrument, people used to think of them mostly in very utilitarian ways - just a means for writing that you want to somewhat be able to "forget" as you're writing, in order to focus on what you're writing (my tailor always says that a good suit is one that you can forget you're wearing), whereas modern-day hobbyists / collectors put more emphasis on the pen itself (not that the writing doesn't matter), and as a result like pens that have more of a visual and physical presence?

 

I'd love to hear people's thoughts about this.

[Ron Z]

Duofold Sr, Sheaffer OS Balance, Sheaffer Valiant, Sheaffer PFM,  Waterman #7, 55 and 56 and Patrician, OS Wahl decoband., early Montblanc pens...  I'm sure that I'm missing a bunch, but there were a lot of really big pens from the 1920s through to the 60s before we hit the "skinny pen" phase of the 70s and 80s.  A current production Pelikan 600 or maybe an Esterbrook J is, with a few exceptions, about as small as I like, and I don't have big hands. 

[Arsouille]

That's true. I guess the example I was thinking more about is how generations of Germans seem to be fine writing with those smaller Pelikan pens?

 

It might also have to do with the fact that dip pens remained the standard for a long time, in a lot of countries. They were still the only permitted writing instruments in French public schools as late as the early 60s. The view was that flourishes and line variation were part of proper penmanship, and that fountain pens were "too easy" (my dad still fumes at the memory of hearing that as a kid). I suppose when you've learnt how to write with a slander dip pen, the transition to a slim fountain pen is natural. 

[rjv]

I like your second theory.  A pen was just a tool.  Write what you need to write, then back into the pocket.

[Ron Z]

If the pen was just a tool, please explain why the orange Parker Duofold was so popular, and was copied so much back in the 20s and 30s, and still is today.  Or why the Sheaffer Balance in Black and Pearl, and jade, and ebonized pearl sold so well, and why the whole pen industry changed to follow their torpedo/tapered pen design.  Or why so many companies found (and find) a way to copy elements of the Parker 51?

 

Yes, a fountain pen was and is a tool.  But there is also the aesthetic of design in shape, materials and colors.  Some were purely functional, but what the low end companies did was to design pens with a lot of bling when they couldn't deliver quality - and sold a lot of pens.

 

Tom Zoss likes to say that the patent wars between pen companies were as vicious and big as the patent wars we see today between tech companies, and it wasn't all function.

[Arsouille]

I think it's fair to say that fountain pens were just a tool to a much higher share of their users when they were the only writing option vs today. We had to use them in school when i was a kid, and we didn't think more about them than we did about our BICs later. We definitely had views on sneakers and electronics, but not the fountain pens we used all day. We had some generic watermans / parkers / pilots, with strict instructions to only use waterman erasable blue cartridges and clairefontaine paper. It was 100% utilitarian. 

 

That's not to say that there weren't a lot of people then who loved them as more than tools when they were the only option. Just that if you buy them today, it's a much more intentional decision that's probably not mostly utilitarian. 

 

 

[LoveBigPensAndCannotLie]

6 hours ago, Ron Z said:

Duofold Sr, Sheaffer OS Balance, Sheaffer Valiant, Sheaffer PFM,  Waterman #7, 55 and 56 and Patrician, OS Wahl decoband., early Montblanc pens...  I'm sure that I'm missing a bunch, but there were a lot of really big pens from the 1920s through to the 60s before we hit the "skinny pen" phase of the 70s and 80s.  A current production Pelikan 600 or maybe an Esterbrook J is, with a few exceptions, about as small as I like, and I don't have big hands. 

 

Weren't these big pens far less common than the smaller size ones? The Waterman 52 is by far the most common of the bunch and that is a fairly slim compact pen.  And wasn't the Patrician a commercial failure? Such a large and expensive pen wouldn't have been much in demand during the early years of the Great Depression. So these pens were definitely available but IMO not the norm.

 

I think the large pen fascination is largely an aesthetic choice but I wonder if there is functional aspect to it these days as well. So many white collar workers spend hours and hours on their computers and laptops and it wreaks havoc on our wrists and other joints. Large pens are definitely more comfortable to use if you have hand mobility issues.

 

I find for myself the overall size of the pen doesn't matter as much as the shape and size of the section in particular. I have a hard time with early Sheaffer pens, even the big ones, because they used very short sections. Especially the very early Balance pens. I don't understand why. The later TM and Snorkel pens have pretty thin sections but they are very comfortable because they're fairly long and you have a lot of choice to accommodate where you want to grip - I actually find them more comfortable than the slightly earlier "fat" touchdown and Triumph pens despite having a thinner section. Esterbrook J's are wonderful pens in general but I find their sections uncomfortably small as well.

[rjv]

Arsouille, I want to agree with you on this.  I grew up in the 1950s and 60s, used fountain pens in school because they were required, and beyond that, never thought of them.  My parents each had a fountain pen, but didn't seem to think anything special about them.  Now, I don't doubt that even before that there were a small subset of fountain pen users that were the forerunners of people like us, fountain pen lovers.  Those folks and us see fountain pens for more than just their utility.  To analogize, think about pickup trucks.  Up until the last few decades, pickup trucks were bought almost exclusively to be used for work purposes.  Nowadays, however, while some pickups are used for work, most of those $70 and $80K pickups are purchased for, shall we say, complicated reasons, but not so much for work.

 

Of course, many of us purchase pens for hundreds, sometimes thousands of dollars.  So maybe we just have a different set of complicated reasons for doing so.

[MuddyWaters]

the small pens were also meant to be posted in a lot of cases

 

when people prefer larger pens today, it is rarely to use them posted, at least that is the case for me. 

[Arsouille]

2 hours ago, rjv said:

Arsouille, I want to agree with you on this.  I grew up in the 1950s and 60s, used fountain pens in school because they were required, and beyond that, never thought of them.  My parents each had a fountain pen, but didn't seem to think anything special about them.  Now, I don't doubt that even before that there were a small subset of fountain pen users that were the forerunners of people like us, fountain pen lovers.  Those folks and us see fountain pens for more than just their utility.  To analogize, think about pickup trucks.  Up until the last few decades, pickup trucks were bought almost exclusively to be used for work purposes.  Nowadays, however, while some pickups are used for work, most of those $70 and $80K pickups are purchased for, shall we say, complicated reasons, but not so much for work.

 

Of course, many of us purchase pens for hundreds, sometimes thousands of dollars.  So maybe we just have a different set of complicated reasons for doing so.

 

Great point, though some would certainly argue that some of the complicated reasons behind buying oversized pickups and buying oversized pens may just be the same

[Arsouille]

1 hour ago, MuddyWaters said:

the small pens were also meant to be posted in a lot of cases

 

when people prefer larger pens today, it is rarely to use them posted, at least that is the case for me. 

 

Ah, that's a good point. 

 

2 hours ago, LoveBigPensAndCannotLie said:

 

Weren't these big pens far less common than the smaller size ones? The Waterman 52 is by far the most common of the bunch and that is a fairly slim compact pen.  And wasn't the Patrician a commercial failure? Such a large and expensive pen wouldn't have been much in demand during the early years of the Great Depression. So these pens were definitely available but IMO not the norm.

 

I think the large pen fascination is largely an aesthetic choice but I wonder if there is functional aspect to it these days as well. So many white collar workers spend hours and hours on their computers and laptops and it wreaks havoc on our wrists and other joints. Large pens are definitely more comfortable to use if you have hand mobility issues.

 

I find for myself the overall size of the pen doesn't matter as much as the shape and size of the section in particular. I have a hard time with early Sheaffer pens, even the big ones, because they used very short sections. Especially the very early Balance pens. I don't understand why. The later TM and Snorkel pens have pretty thin sections but they are very comfortable because they're fairly long and you have a lot of choice to accommodate where you want to grip - I actually find them more comfortable than the slightly earlier "fat" touchdown and Triumph pens despite having a thinner section. Esterbrook J's are wonderful pens in general but I find their sections uncomfortably small as well.

 

I hadn't though about hand mobility, but that would make sense... 

 

I hold my pens very close to the nib, so the length of the section doesn't really matter to me. The diameter is perfectly comfortable at 10mm for me, and anything much bigger feels clunky. 

[Waltz For Zizi]

I started being a fan of fountan pens about 10 years ago and I got tricked into the fad that bigger is better that almos every youtuber was preaching, and only in the last 2 years after buying the "recommended" big pens like MB149, Delta Dolcevita Oversize, Pelikan m800, I realized I very much prefer smaller pens even at home, not to mention when I go out, I'd rarely pick a big pen.

And the funny thing is, the more pens I bought the more I started to like even smaller pens. I used to think the Pelikan m600 was my size a few years ago, but now I like the m400/m200 and the Sailor Pro gear slim type of pens better, I don't think I can go smaller because I don't post my pens and I have above average sized hands in length, not girth.

[Arsouille]

3 hours ago, Waltz For Zizi said:

I started being a fan of fountan pens about 10 years ago and I got tricked into the fad that bigger is better that almos every youtuber was preaching, and only in the last 2 years after buying the "recommended" big pens like MB149, Delta Dolcevita Oversize, Pelikan m800, I realized I very much prefer smaller pens even at home, not to mention when I go out, I'd rarely pick a big pen.

And the funny thing is, the more pens I bought the more I started to like even smaller pens. I used to think the Pelikan m600 was my size a few years ago, but now I like the m400/m200 and the Sailor Pro gear slim type of pens better, I don't think I can go smaller because I don't post my pens and I have above average sized hands in length, not girth.

 

Thanks! And same - I don't have bear paws, but long fingers. I returned the M800 my wife had gotten me for Father's day after a few days, and felt really bad about it: it was an expensive gift, and supposedly the absolute perfect pen...

 

Completely agree that youtubers are pretty much 100% behind big pens. 

 

I wonder if it's in part because of the same reasons that people who work in menswear tend to end up wearing very loud stuff: when you look at things all day, you gradually become bored of the quieter, more understated objects. 

[Estycollector]

On 8/9/2023 at 9:31 AM, Arsouille said:

Hi all -

 

I keep seeing youtube reviews that equate pen sizes with hand sizes, and I am puzzled by this. I have the type of hands that are good to play piano with, but the relatively small Sailor Pro Gear is perfect for me, and I've come to realize that given a choice between an M800 and an M120 I would pick the M120 every time. 

 

But that also got me thinking - vintage pens are typically much smaller than modern ones, and for decades Pelikan's largest pen was the M400. It looks like the M800 was only launched in the late 80s, as fountain pens were already well past their golden age. Surely people had big hands in the 1930s-70s? And they clearly did more handwriting than we currently do. 

 

I have 2 pet theories, with 0 proof or backing behind them:

- Could it be that people used to be taught to write and hold their pens in very specific ways, which worked well with smaller pens, and as the teaching of penmanship became less strict, they were given much more leeway, and started holding their pens in ways that make bigger pens more comfortable? I know that people's handwritings used to be much harder to identify, as children were taught to shape letters in very standa

- Could it be that when fountain pens were the primary writing instrument, people used to think of them mostly in very utilitarian ways - just a means for writing that you want to somewhat be able to "forget" as you're writing, in order to focus on what you're writing (my tailor always says that a good suit is one that you can forget you're wearing), whereas modern-day hobbyists / collectors put more emphasis on the pen itself (not that the writing doesn't matter), and as a result like pens that have more of a visual and physical presence?

 

I'd love to hear people's thoughts about this.

I enjoyed reading your comments and especially, "forget" as you're writing".