ID help required please? Parker ball point query

[sherbie]

Folks, i require some help again please! I found this yesterday - “rage red?” Colour barreled ball point with polka dot box and instructions - would seem to date pen to 1958-early 60s. The instruction sheet mentions Parker 51 aero plus a few other Jotter sub brands (51, duofold, princess, debutante manim etc)  - but none of the sub-brands mentioned seem to describe the ball point pen found 

 

its got a P45 type clip, cap activated pressing system, but with a convex metal jewel, pen is not dated but has Parker halo logo so after 1958. It also has metal (attached to barrel) and brass threads inside cap, so its an earlier pen, before they moved to plastic threads on the barrel. It also doesnt have the normal press button Jotter button on top

 

any ideas please ? 
 

cheers paul

[sherbie]

A few more shots 

[Number99]

Hello.

This is not an answer, but a sharing of reference information. Here is a link to the PDF catalog material from the PCA Library.

https://pencollectorsofamerica.org/reference-library/parker/

 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1dpqZ6BY2eJxXi78vp3G1K0FAzeC_gMkl

 

I think they require further confirmation of detailed information, but I think the clip and cap top screw features of the T-Ball Deluxe on page 8 of this PARKER 1958 catalog are similar.

 

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by Number99
Fixed early t-ball to t-ball.

[sherbie]

Wow, what a resource - many thanks, I never knew this existed 

 

i think you may be right - i think its a Parker T-Ball Jotter Deluxe in red - this screenshot is from 1957

 

 

[Number99]

1 hour ago, sherbie said:

Wow, what a resource - many thanks, I never knew this existed 

 

i think you may be right - i think its a Parker T-Ball Jotter Deluxe in red - this screenshot is from 1957

 

 

I am interested in this, please let me know.

How does the geometry compare to the T-Ball Deluxe and Parker 45 ballpoint pens with the recessed conical cap top screw? 

Just the difference between cap tops and clips?

Until I saw your pen, I was aware that the T-Ball Deluxe was a ballpoint pen with the same geometry as the Parker 45. (The only difference is that the cap does not have the "45" engraved on it.)

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by Number99

[sherbie]

Found a Parker 45 ball point, with concave tassie from the same era (cap stamping exactly the same “Parker halo logo above Made in England”. No date code, nor 45 stamp

 

the barrels are the same length, but the P45 cap length is longer. 40.5 mm clip

 

P45, cap 54 mm, 56.5 mm with clip

Jotter Deluxe cap 46 mm, 51 mm with clip (and jewel point). The clip is shorter too - 37.5 mm

 

p45 length 12.85 mm long

Jotter Deluxe 12.4 mm long

 

 

Hope this helps, cheers paul

 

[Number99]

On 6/29/2023 at 12:54 AM, sherbie said:

Found a Parker 45 ball point, with concave tassie from the same era (cap stamping exactly the same “Parker halo logo above Made in England”. No date code, nor 45 stamp

 

the barrels are the same length, but the P45 cap length is longer. 40.5 mm clip

 

P45, cap 54 mm, 56.5 mm with clip

Jotter Deluxe cap 46 mm, 51 mm with clip (and jewel point). The clip is shorter too - 37.5 mm

 

p45 length 12.85 mm long

Jotter Deluxe 12.4 mm long

 

 

Hope this helps, cheers paul

 

Thanks for the info and pictures.

Strictly speaking, the T-Ball package I have, which has the same geometry as my 45 bp, does not have "deluxe" printed on it. I had interpreted that as a Japan-specific name.

I think I misunderstood the relationship between these pens.

I have learned my lesson.

 

*This pen was described in the Japanese PARKER catalog as a "t-ball flighter".

 

 

Edited June 30, 2023 by Number99
Added image.

[Number99]

On 6/29/2023 at 1:11 AM, Number99 said:

Thanks for the info and pictures.

Strictly speaking, the T-Ball package I have, which has the same geometry as my 45 bp, does not have "deluxe" printed on it. I had interpreted that as a Japan-specific name.

I think I misunderstood the relationship between these pens.

I have learned my lesson.

 

*This pen was described in the Japanese PARKER catalog as a "t-ball flighter".

 

 

 

Please forgive me for deviating from the subject of the topic. The pen in the image I added can be interpreted as a different box, so I am attaching a link to the catalog.

In this catalog the so-called jotter appears under the model name t-ball special, while the 45 ballpoint pen is in a separate column from the t-ball flighter.

Please note that this is a catalog for the Japanese market. The text in the images is in Japanese so you need Google Lens to translate them.

 

*t-ball flighter CT is 4th from the right in the top row. Link to images from the Japanese blog post "Fountain Pen Evaluation Room".

https://livedoor.blogimg.jp/pelikan_1931/imgs/3/4/342eb245.jpg

 

Edited July 1, 2023 by Number99

[Number99]

I happened to find this Parker 45 pencil and ballpoint pen set at the Unwanted Items Market after posting in this thread. The seller's husband bought them in the US and kept them unused.

Both do not have the "45" stamped on the cap. This pen and the t-ball flighter have the same specifications and are indistinguishable without the box.

I am not confused about this, because I can sense some marketing intention of PARKER in pricing the t-ball flighter at 1000 JPY and the 45 flighter ballpoint pen at 2000 JPY in the Japanese market.

 

*I borrowed the image from the seller of the pen I purchased.

"NO.0-130-900/PRINTED IN U.S.A/8-74" is printed on the inside of the box. The box was probably made in August 1974.

If I am wrong, please enlighten me.

 

Edited July 8, 2023 by Number99

[Sheptonian]

Hi Sherbie - sorry to be a little late to the party...

 

I think that your dating is absolutely spot-on.

 

Here are some extracts from a 1959 UK dealer flyer showing the range of the Jotter at the time - from 20/- (£1.00) for a lowly Slimfold, Lady or "17" version right through to £32 11/- (£32.55 in decimal currency) for the Parker "51" Presidential 18k variety. Interestingly the t-Ball Jotter was 2/6 (12.5p) more expensive that the "17" et al, presumably on account of the Lustraloy cap. 

 

I hope this helps.

[jchch1950]

Interesting flier. Every time that I see the prices 30 or 40 years ago I think about why I didn't buy them at that time.😪

[Sheptonian]

Thanks.

The flyer is one of my favourite bits of ephemera accumulated over the years. It provides a snapshot of Parker's UK offering at the very end of the 50s before the arrival of the Parker 45 and the Parker 61, showing amongst other things the ubiquity of the Jotter. It is also helpful in getting the model availability, naming, and colours right.

The Parkers that I liked when at school, university or early in my career were always the more expensive ones. Difficult to justify the expense even when I could afford them so Parker 45s and Jotters it was for quite some time.

 

 

[FlighterGuy]

Parker 21

[Number99]

20 hours ago, FlighterGuy said:

Parker 21

 

Hello!

 

Do you mean that the pen in the title is a Parker 21 or similar?

I have searched the internet for articles and pictures of Parker 21 ballpoint pens with clips that have feathers, yesterday, but have not been able to find any. I am curious about it.

Please let me know if you don't mind.